in mast reefing.- is it a problem

[barca nova]

Saw a boat yesterday that I really liked but it had in mast reefing as did all its sister ships on offer. In the past I have always avoided this system after seeing the issues that a pal had with the add on system on his Moody. I thought that yesterdays original fit system would be better but I asked the broker to unfurl the sail and sure enough it was wrapped and jammed at the top. The boat was a 2013 model and the sail undoubtedly original.

So is there anyone on here who has been using such an original fit system for some years without issues? Or is it like teak decks something to be avoided?

What are the ricks of using it successfully.

 

[Sea Change]

This is a subject that comes up regularly on the forum. It definitely divides opinion.

I've never had in-mast but I know people who are very happy with theirs. On larger boats I can see the advantage in easier sail handling. The downsides are that you'll have a smaller, flatter sail, and more weight aloft, although if the boat was designed with this in mind it shouldn't make a big difference.

It seems to be a bit less tolerant of mistakes than slab reefing, and you may have to replace your sail a bit more often as too much belly can lead to trouble.

So you'll find that budget conscious sailors are likely to avoid it, whilst those with deeper pockets don't see the problem.

 

[fredrussell]

… I asked the broker to unfurl the sail and sure enough it was wrapped and jammed at the top…

Is it possible that the broker was unfamiliar with the furling/unfurling method and that in the right hands it would have been fine?

 

[RunAgroundHard]

I was sailing last weekend on a Bavaria 38, from 2004, with original in mast reefing, and an old mainsail. Winds were from F3 to F6. I do not have experience of in mast furling except one other boat. It worked great, reefed as required, from very shortened main sail area to full sail, wind drawing hard on the system. We did manage to reef on a fine reach, using the winch on the reefing line and a fair bit of drag on the sail. There was no jamming, or bunching, or folds the wrong way. The boat is a sailing school, charter boat, so has seen a lot of use.

Like all technical systems, I assume there is a degree of servicing required. As far as I am concerned, on two boats at least, in furling main has performed very well indeed. As usual, read the manual and furl as instructed.

 

[dunedin]

What make of system was fitted - eg was it Selden?
Factory fit are much better than retrofit - but as above needs to be used according to instructions, and sail needs to be in reasonable shape.

Personally I much prefer the upwind performance of a fully battened mainsail and stackpack, but undoubtedly plenty of people (perhaps now the majority) find in mast furling works fine for their needs.

 

[Supertramp]

If you think of it as the equivalent of a furling jib, you can see the advantages but also the disadvantages of sail shape for racing. However as others have said here if the sail is furled badly or is baggy then you can get folds. It is usually possible to furl but the unfurling can be a problem as the fold jams up inside, especially in fresher winds.

I had the original mainsail on a factory fit Selden system. It jammed after 35 years (!) and now has a new Vectran mainsail and has returned to good behaviour. It is handy singlehanded and I am not looking for the ultimate windward performance. I didn't want in mast but it came with the boat.

The choice really centres on what sort of sailing you will do. Singlehanded, day and coastal there are lots of arguments for. Crewed, racing or multiday offshore passages and the balance tips towards slab.

 

[westernman]

I have used in mast furling on a sailing school boat. If you do it right, it will work without problems.
However, if you do screw up, you can be well and truly ******ed when you most need it to work.

For me, I don't like it because of the dreadful shape of the sail - but as others have said each to their own....

 

[Baggywrinkle]

I have had Selden systems on both my boats going back to 2011.

My own sail has jammed once when I fitted new sails and one of the sail numbers came unstuck, balled up inside the mast, and had to be forced out, which broke one of my vertical battens - it didn't jam as such, just needed to be forced.

On charter boats I have had the following issues because the systems were not well maintained ....

I had a furler jam on one charter because the main sail was completely shot. It had stretched to make the centre very baggy, and the material had become so soft it folded easily inside the mast. When rolling it out, it would pick up a fold and pull it out through the slot - if you didn't notice, it jammed, and had to be rolled back in with some force to free it. Worked a treat if it was furled in and out on starboard tack as the wind pressure closed up the slot so the folds couldn't escape. Not a great experience.

I have also had stack-packs catch their battens in the lazy-jacks often, I've been thrashed by single line furling ropes flailing around, and I've almost been tossed off the cabin roof trying to tame a main-sail as it was dropped into the boom cover. I've experienced broken mast sliders, and systems where winches were always necessary to raise the main (40ft + boats), as well as having to go to the mast to make the halyard secure when I would rather have stayed in the cockpit. I'm not very big so also find it difficult to reach the end of the boom to close the sail bag, especially if it's up on top of a bimini.

My personal recommendation ....

On boats around 35ft and below, both systems are fine and can be tweaked to work well from the cockpit.

A furling system needs a good sail which is stiff and well cared for.

A stack-pack needs a set of ball-bearing sliders on the mast and the entire length of the boom needs to be accessible (IMO).

Over 40ft, furling systems start to come into their own IMO. I can easily manage my Selden furler on my Bav 44 Vison (which has new sails), and my previous Bav 36 was even easier.

I was struggling to manage the stack pack on a S0419 (it had plastic mast sliders which broke), an electric winch to raise the sail would have been a great help. I couldn't tie off the halyard with the sail down unless I climbed the mast or used a boat-hook to fish it down to tie it off. I couldn't reach the zip to close the sail bag, due to height over cockpit and the bimini.

On a non-battened furling main, reefing is possible on all points of sail, heading into the wind is needed for a vertical battened furling main (the battens won't go in the slot if the sail is under load from the side or downwind). A stack-pack needs to go up into the wind to reef.

Stack-pack sails are generally larger and the horizontal battens and larger roach give better shape and performance, but a vertically battened furling main also has more roach and sets really nicely - but out and out sailing performance win goes to the stack-pack.

I would always buy a furler over a stack-pack on a 40ft plus boat (I sail with my wife). If I had a crew of gorillas and was into racing then it would be a stack pack.

Hope this helps, don't believe the evangelists from either camp - maintenance, upgrades, and practice will make both systems perform well while being easy to use.

 

[Sea Change]

I have had Selden systems on both my boats going back to 2011.

My own sail has jammed once when I fitted new sails and one of the sail numbers came unstuck, balled up inside the mast, and had to be forced out, which broke one of my vertical battens - it didn't jam as such, just needed to be forced.

On charter boats I have had the following issues because the systems were not well maintained ....

I had a furler jam on one charter because the main sail was completely shot. It had stretched to make the centre very baggy, and the material had become so soft it folded easily inside the mast. When rolling it out, it would pick up a fold and pull it out through the slot - if you didn't notice, it jammed, and had to be rolled back in with some force to free it. Worked a treat if it was furled in and out on starboard tack as the wind pressure closed up the slot so the folds couldn't escape. Not a great experience.

I have also had stack-packs catch their battens in the lazy-jacks often, I've been thrashed by single line furling ropes flailing around, and I've almost been tossed off the cabin roof trying to tame a main-sail as it was dropped into the boom cover. I've experienced broken mast sliders, and systems where winches were always necessary to raise the main (40ft + boats), as well as having to go to the mast to make the halyard secure when I would rather have stayed in the cockpit. I'm not very big so also find it difficult to reach the end of the boom to close the sail bag, especially if it's up on top of a bimini.

My personal recommendation ....

On boats around 35ft and below, both systems are fine and can be tweaked to work well from the cockpit.

A furling system needs a good sail which is stiff and well cared for.

A stack-pack needs a set of ball-bearing sliders on the mast and the entire length of the boom needs to be accessible (IMO).

Over 40ft, furling systems start to come into their own IMO. I can easily manage my Selden furler on my Bav 44 Vison (which has new sails), and my previous Bav 36 was even easier.

I was struggling to manage the stack pack on a S0419 (it had plastic mast sliders which broke), an electric winch to raise the sail would have been a great help. I couldn't tie off the halyard with the sail down unless I climbed the mast or used a boat-hook to fish it down to tie it off. I couldn't reach the zip to close the sail bag, due to height over cockpit and the bimini.

On a non-battened furling main, reefing is possible on all points of sail, heading into the wind is needed for a vertical battened furling main (the battens won't go in the slot if the sail is under load from the side or downwind). A stack-pack needs to go up into the wind to reef.

Stack-pack sails are generally larger and the horizontal battens and larger roach give better shape and performance, but a vertically battened furling main also has more roach and sets really nicely - but out and out sailing performance win goes to the stack-pack.

I would always buy a furler over a stack-pack on a 40ft plus boat (I sail with my wife). If I had a crew of gorillas and was into racing then it would be a stack pack.

Hope this helps, don't believe the evangelists from either camp - maintenance, upgrades, and practice will make both systems perform well while being easy to use.

Yup, I'm a short guy on a 47ft boat and I really struggle to reach my stack-pack. There's a few times when we've just used the genoa because it's so much hassle getting the main up and down. I've never been a fan of in-mast but on this boat it would lead to me sailing better, more of the time.
Eventually I'm going to build a hard dodger which I can stand on, and I'll have much better access to everything.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Yup, I'm a short guy on a 47ft boat and I really struggle to reach my stack-pack. There's a few times when we've just used the genoa because it's so much hassle getting the main up and down. I've never been a fan of in-mast but on this boat it would lead to me sailing better, more of the time.
Eventually I'm going to build a hard dodger which I can stand on, and I'll have much better access to everything.

You could just fit lazy jacks and throw over a conventional sail cover modified for the lazy lines, and secure underneath. I have a stack pack at home for my boat, took it off for different reasons, but will reinstate lazy jacks, probably this year, to make mainsail handling easier. I don't particularly like a stack pack form a visual, aesthetics look anyway. I think the lazy jacks and separate sail cover is a great compromise and have seen it on other boats used efficiently.

 

[NormanS]

We're an old couple with in mast furling, on a boat designed to have it.
We hoist the main once a year, and can use whatever area of the sail is appropriate, without ever leaving the helm. For us, it works well, and without it, we probably would have had to give up sailing. Like most things in life, you have to learn how to get the best out of it.

 

[dunedin]

….

Over 40ft, furling systems start to come into their own IMO. I can easily manage my Selden furler on my Bav 44 Vison (which has new sails), and my previous Bav 36 was even easier…..

A good summary, except that over 40 foot if want a simpler system plus performance, a lot of performance cruisers (eg X Yachts etc) are fitting in boom furling. Also means that in worst case can always drop the sail.

 

[Sea Change]

A good summary, except that over 40 foot if want a simpler system plus performance, a lot of performance cruisers (eg X Yachts etc) are fitting in boom furling. Also means that in worst case can always drop the sail.

Not without their problems... I only know one person with in boom and he didn't really like it... could just be that his is badly set up.

 

[LittleSister]

. . . a lot of performance cruisers (eg X Yachts etc) are fitting in boom furling. . . .

And who could forget the good old 1960s roller booms, where you would wind the mainsail round the boom by rotating it with a handle inserted near the gooseneck, and when reefed fitted a claw over the boom and sail to re-attach the kicking strap. It's back to the future!

 

[Baggywrinkle]

A good summary, except that over 40 foot if want a simpler system plus performance, a lot of performance cruisers (eg X Yachts etc) are fitting in boom furling. Also means that in worst case can always drop the sail.

True, however in-boom wasn't what the OP asked.

I think in-boom is an excellent idea, but in its current forms I wouldn't go as far as to say it is simpler. The X-Yachts system needs the boom locked at the correct angle before reefing - using topping lift and vang controls - then it only has 2 reef points (where the sail is adequately re-enforced), so not as variable as in-mast.

Tension needs to be kept on the halyard while a continuous line on a power winch rotates the mandrel in the boom. A bit similar to the outhaul on in-mast, but in-mast is more tolerant to both boom angle and outhaul tension. (I often let a 50-75cm length of outhaul go, clamp it, then reef to haul it tight again)
It is not possible to let the halyard go with in-boom as the sail can drop out of the track at the bottom, folding at the furler and risking folds getting rolled round the mandrel.

Basically, in-mast allows use of the wind to keep the sailcloth taught, independent of the outhaul, but with in-boom gravity is pulling the sail down regardless - so it needs careful halyard control.

Give it a couple of years and it will be automated, like Seldens SMF (Synchronised Mainsail Furling) ... then the human factor will be removed and it may well replace in-mast. Motorised vang, motorised mandrel, and electric winch on the halyard.

 

[LittleSister]

I don't have enough experience of in-mast reefing to be able to offer an informed opinion, but I am reminded of one encounter with in-mast reefing which I will recount just to pass the time of day.

I had chartered an AWB of about 35ft or 38ft in Greece with a girlfriend and her two young daughters. I say charter, though it was notionally a flotilla, but as happened on several occasions over the years, in the course of the first day the flotilla leader quickly formed the impression I knew what I was doing (if only he knew! ) and allowed us to go off on our own, one year on the condition that I called each night to let them know where I was, but on this occasion with no such requirement, just to ensure I arrived at the destination base by 1pm, or whatever it was, on the last day.

My crew had zero sailing experience, and even less interest in gaining any (slight exaggeration there for artistic effect), so I was effectively single handing with passengers. I had diligently got us the night before the end of our trip to a harbour close to the destination base, but was disappointed we hadn't made it to an island a further south I hadn't previously visited. Thus it was I cajoled an early start the next day so we could go to that island, anchor in the nearest inlet to our destination for an early lunch, and then make a dash back north to the the destination port by the deadline.

Our anchorage was lovely, the sun shone and we were sheltered from the wind, the girls sunbathed and perhaps swam, and it we had a nice elevenses/lunch in the cockpit. It was quite challenge to goad them back into action to help get the cockpit etc. cleared away, but we were by then cutting it quite fine to get to our final destination by the deadline. Once the domestic clutter was cleared below I got things readied to raise the anchor, then went to pull out the main.

Except it wouldn't come out more than a couple of feet! It had been a bit stiff to roll out throughout our stay, but now it was very resistant. I tried several times with various adjustments and increased vigour, but without success. Time was now very tight. Never mind, I thought, we'll just have to do the passage under engine - a shame not be sailing for the last leg of our trip, but c'est la vie. Started the engine, went forward to get the anchor up, when suddenly there are shrieks from the back of the boat. Smoke is pouring out of the engine compartment and an alarm is sounding!

I stopped the engine. I'd just have to radio in our predicament and location, which I'm sure would go down like a lead balloon at this hour and distance away on a changeover day, but had one last go at getting the sail out. I applied more 'persuasion' than I'd previously done or was comfortable with, and thought if I tore the sail or broke something, then at least I'd have an excuse. The jam finally suddenly released its grip, and the rest of the sail came out as normal. I finished getting the anchor up and the sails set.

We made a thankfully fairly swift passage to our destination port, arriving at the entrance in the nick of time before the stated deadline. I am used to sailing on and off of moorings, and occasionally pontoons, but I had never been to this port before, and didn't know the layout nor quite how cramped it would be inside (out of sight up an inlet), and was mindful there might be numerous less than fully competently skippered flotilla boats careering about, so radioed ahead to ask if they could be ready with an inflatable to help me dock if need be. Instead they told me to wait at the entrance and they'd come out to me. They arrived very quickly, put someone aboard, and had the engine sorted (replacement impeller? - I can't remember) impressively quickly (they must do this all the time), and we motored in.

The experience didn't put me off in-mast reefing, though was informative about the potential downsides -reliability, sailing performance and aesthetics - but can't imagine ever being in a position to buy a boat with it, so I don't need to worry about it.

 

[westernman]

And who could forget the good old 1960s roller booms, where you would wind the mainsail round the boom by rotating it with a handle inserted near the gooseneck, and when reefed fitted a claw over the boom and sail to re-attach the kicking strap. It's back to the future!

1960s???
That existed on Bristol Channel Pilot Cutters at least as far back as 1912. May be further.

 

[Humblebee]

Lots of good advice above, shows again the value of these forums.
My tuppence worth, I have a Facnor behind the mast roller reefing system, a little care needs to be taken furling to ensure the sail is not slack and liable to get creased. Keeping the boat a little of the wind and a bit of tension on the reefing lines seems to avoid any problems.

 

[ashtead]

We had the choice as to whether to fit in mast on our Moody 41 and decided to go with stack pack (we had previously had this on our smallerBavaria but have sailed in mast reefing and in boom furling on other boats. After 10 years sailing the Moody I don’t regret having a fully battened main and stack pack but we have electric winches to haul up.
Advantage is you can drop the main quickly if you head to wind into stack pack so with planning it’s simple and after a couple of years you should not need to pull down it will just drop in and lie in the stack pack but if cautious a sail tie can be wrapped round. That said putting the boot cover on in marina needs the mast step low down. If we were older or had a bigger main say a46ft vessel then would accept in mast but with regret. If buying a sub 40ft I would tend towards stack pack unless less agile. My impression is the fully battened main sails slightly faster and closer to wind but no scientific testing to prove.

 

[Roberto]

With modern in mast furling systems, can the sail area be increased/decreased at any point of sail, without modifying course/wind angle? Can one adjust the surface while keeping a steady course sailing with the wind from say 120-150° (polar)?