Chiara’s slave
Well-Known Member
Very true. Before trying it, I couldn’t see why anyone would want it. Now I can see that it’s me that still doesn’t want it, but it has a useful place.
In mast furling. Desirable?
- Thread starter pcatterall
- Start date
wonkywinch
Well-Known Member
Five year old article - Mainsail furling systems: an expert guide - Yachting Monthly
Tranona
Well-Known Member
There is no cost penalty for in mast - rather the opposite. The Vectran mainsail I had made cost about the same as the much smaller battened sail I had made in premium Dacron 2 years later for my GH - and not even fully battened. There is a lot of labour and extra components in a fully battened mainsail. As to maintenance, really nothing much involved in a Selden system and only 2 bits of running rigging for furling/reefing.
The extra initial cost on my Bavaria was just over £1000. For a used boat like the OP is looking at where there is a choice of 2, one with, one without overall condition and price is likely to be far more important.
doug748
Well-Known Member
At 84 he should strongly consider it, though not at the expense of disappointing younger subscribers who would likely be the ones with the longer term investment.
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requiem
Well-Known Member
Note that some setups call for the boom to be slightly raised rather than perpendicular, and the preferred tack may also vary, so the correct technique may vary by make. All the other points, such as keeping tension on the outhaul, apply more generally.
ashtead
Well-Known Member
For us there was quite an add on in price from new A lot more than £1k) in having the in mast reefing system fitted compared to standard mainsail - I can understand once replacing main it might not make much difference although I would have thought you might need to replace the main more often to avoid all the issues associated with charter boat in mast mains which can be temperamental . The other issue I have seen on a Hallberg 43 is jamming once a shiny new main is acquired -again I don’t know if these folk were just unlucky (a hamble boat I recall) but I’d rather preferred having shelled out for a new main not to face another bill for the mast coming down and in mast furler rebuild . Clearly one case might be the exception but a factor to consider if buying an old boat like a 43 and having to replace main is any costs due to worn gear. As said though main set up is just one factor and it might be diesel size/age /hours etc might be more material ,presence of a windlass or shower or whatever . Maybe a few pictures of the Furiae in debate might assist though on other features.
wonkywinch
Well-Known Member
You're quite right, I let the main off and pull the vang by hand just sufficient to hold the boom but not tighten the leech. I've corrected my post after I fact checked myself!
wonkywinch
Well-Known Member
Can I ask who you chose to make your sails? In the market now and doing the comparisons. PM if you prefer.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Why should younger people be disappointed? The benefits are available for all ages, and as many have said (if you really bother to read what they say) the so called downsides are vastly overstated. Nothing to do with "longer term investment" The benefits are there from day one and don't change over time even though the long term maintenance costs are likely to be less.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
No, quite happy to do it in public. I got 3 quotes, Kemps, Crusader and what was then the UK Elvestrom loft. All recommended Vectran with no battens and more or less the same price. Kemps have made sails for me for over 30 years so no reason to do anything different for this one. Owain Peters at the Wareham office is the man to talk to
GEM43
Well-Known Member
Interesting. Kemp has made all our sails, we have vertical battens in our furling main. Kemp recommendation.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Yes, there is is no clear one best way. As I noted earlier my Bavaria 33 has a very slim mast section which will not take full length battens but could have taken short battens if a lighter cloth was used. Hence the recommendation to use Vectran. Even then it only just fitted when fully rolled in and only after removing the plastic covers of the access slots as the clips that hold them in fouled the last roll of sail. The slightly later 34 I understand has a different section mast and will take battens.
doug748
Well-Known Member
Indeed, the single benefit is there from day one, as are the multiple disadvantages.
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Tranona
Well-Known Member
Can you explain what the "multiple disadvantages are" ? I can see little in the many posts from people who own boats fitted with in mast that identifies such a list - only from people who have no ownership experience who seem to see things that are not really there.
On the other hand owners with real experience can identify a number of real benefits - perhaps that is reason why they they make an informed and positive choice. Are they all "bonkers" to use your rather rude term?
Sea Change
Well-Known Member
I'm not an in mast owner/user but my understanding is that the list of disadvantages is generally accepted as:
- greater weight aloft
- lower tolerance of aged and baggy sails
- reduced sail area
- more precision needed in boom angle when reducing sail
- greater risk of being unable to quickly reduce sail area of a problem arises.
There are good arguments for suggesting the above list. And there are counter arguments that say slab reefed mains have their own problems, and boats designed for in mast have the weight already accounted for. Etc etc.
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
... just for balance.
Slab-reefing
- greater windage from lazy-jacks, bag, and sail flaked on boom.
- baton ends can get stuck in the lazy-jacks.
- when the main needs to be taken down completely, someone needs to go to the mast to secure the main halyard and prevent partial re-deployment of the main sail.
- need to have access to the full length of the boom to flake and stow properly.
- if a slider breaks or a ball bearing cracks, your sail can jam.
- only 4 pre-set main sail sizes to choose from.
- loose reefing lines can catch people and deck hardware as they thrash around.
- rainwater and dirt can pool in the folds of the sail if left in the lazy bag.
- the bigger the boat, the more difficult the slab reefing is to handle, and the bigger and stronger the crew need to be.
Some of this can be mitigated if you and your crew are well practiced at reefing.
Dockhead
Well-Known Member
No, you're not keeping up.
There are multiple disadvantages, for sure, but the benefits are also multiple.
johnalison
Well-Known Member
True, but most of those are just minor nuisances, while the disadvantages of in-mast such as weight aloft and risk of jamming are persistent and potentially serious. I don’t think I would be considering it as an option under about 38’, and even then, the option of electric winches might make a traditional rig just as attractive. These rigs have obviously matured in the last 20 yrs, but I don’t think they have reached the level of furling jibs as being the obvious choice.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Full disclosure. Our boat has a fully buttoned main with slab briefing and lazy jacks into a stack pack.
Firstly I recognise the challenges of having to go forward to secure the main halyard but on our 11.7 metre heavy and stable boat I’ve never found it a problem.
I’ve sailed numerous boats with in-mast reefing of the main sail and I’m reasonably open minded about their benefits and disadvantages. However I think one or two people are over egging the ease with which they can be furled away. None of the boats I’ve sailed were charter boats and all had owners that spent a lot of money maintaining and providing the very best of sails & equipment. (For example one was a fairly new Halberg Rassey 48.)
However the idea that one could easily reef any of the in-mast mains while going down wind makes me raise an eyebrow! All of the in-mast boats I’ve sailed needed to be either motored or sailed at a fairly critical angle to the wind in order to reef or stow the main.
I’ll be the first to admit that reefing our fully battened slab briefing main whilst going down wind is not my idea of fun but it can be done. It’s not good for the sail dragging it down when it’s pinned against the spreaders, but in extremis it’s easily possible to achieve. Reefing in ordinary circumstances is quick and easy. I’ve never noticed any problem with not having ‘infinite reefing’ possibilities. There are lots of ways to power up or reduce power a traditional mainsail. Stowing it is a doddle. We do have a nice track in the mast and the slides are newish but at the end of a sail, we come head to wind and the main stows itself.
My second point is that we don’t race, but we would really notice the performance difference with an in-mast sail. We’ve sailed in company with friends with a Westerly Oceanlord, which as most people will know is slightly longer than our Westerley Sealord. They have an in-mast reefing main and we consistently leave them in our wake without even trying. Sailing between Caribbean Islands we once left an hour or two after them yet still got to our destination anchorage first. And before anyone suggests they had old and baggy sails, their sails were less than 18 months old. The loss of sail area is more than the ‘in-mast is wonderful’ people would have us believe.
Having said all this, I think on larger boats without strong crews, in-mast (despite its problems) wins out. Just my two pennywoth adding some personal experience from both sides.
The OP really needs to decide whether everyone in the intended boat share will manage in-mast competently. My feeling is they tend to be unforgiving of incompetence and in a shared boat that might be a key consideration.
Firstly I recognise the challenges of having to go forward to secure the main halyard but on our 11.7 metre heavy and stable boat I’ve never found it a problem.
I’ve sailed numerous boats with in-mast reefing of the main sail and I’m reasonably open minded about their benefits and disadvantages. However I think one or two people are over egging the ease with which they can be furled away. None of the boats I’ve sailed were charter boats and all had owners that spent a lot of money maintaining and providing the very best of sails & equipment. (For example one was a fairly new Halberg Rassey 48.)
However the idea that one could easily reef any of the in-mast mains while going down wind makes me raise an eyebrow! All of the in-mast boats I’ve sailed needed to be either motored or sailed at a fairly critical angle to the wind in order to reef or stow the main.
I’ll be the first to admit that reefing our fully battened slab briefing main whilst going down wind is not my idea of fun but it can be done. It’s not good for the sail dragging it down when it’s pinned against the spreaders, but in extremis it’s easily possible to achieve. Reefing in ordinary circumstances is quick and easy. I’ve never noticed any problem with not having ‘infinite reefing’ possibilities. There are lots of ways to power up or reduce power a traditional mainsail. Stowing it is a doddle. We do have a nice track in the mast and the slides are newish but at the end of a sail, we come head to wind and the main stows itself.
My second point is that we don’t race, but we would really notice the performance difference with an in-mast sail. We’ve sailed in company with friends with a Westerly Oceanlord, which as most people will know is slightly longer than our Westerley Sealord. They have an in-mast reefing main and we consistently leave them in our wake without even trying. Sailing between Caribbean Islands we once left an hour or two after them yet still got to our destination anchorage first. And before anyone suggests they had old and baggy sails, their sails were less than 18 months old. The loss of sail area is more than the ‘in-mast is wonderful’ people would have us believe.
Having said all this, I think on larger boats without strong crews, in-mast (despite its problems) wins out. Just my two pennywoth adding some personal experience from both sides.
The OP really needs to decide whether everyone in the intended boat share will manage in-mast competently. My feeling is they tend to be unforgiving of incompetence and in a shared boat that might be a key consideration.
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Tranona
Well-Known Member
That is mostly subjective. The weight aloft is overstated. While it does apply to the original add on type where sticking the extra extrusion on the back has a serious impact on weight aloft and therefore on stability on boats which often had poor stability to start with. This only applies to a few old boat converted 30 or more years go. It doe NOT apply to modern boats of the last 30 years or more designed to have in mast. Difficult to imagine the world's top designers not being aware of the potential issues and designing their boats to meet the required stability requirements. Don't see any evidence of boats being lost or compromised because of in mast. Again not one owner on this thread, some of whom have serious passage making boats have mentioned stability.
Baggy sails - yes, but easily avoided by having the sail made with more stable cloths such as Vectran as I did.
Reduced sail area - yes, but not really the problem you might think. Most modern boats have large sail areas, particularly mains which need reefing early and first slab reef cuts sail area by typically 25%+ whereas furling mains are typically between 5 and 10% less than a slab main on the same boat. This can be reduced further as some have noted by having a battened sail which also allows roach or to a lesser extent by having a reinforced leech like I had which increased the sail area with a bit of roach (rather than the common scalloped leech in cheap sails). Again as others have noted a well cut sail is very amenable to shape adjustment using the outhaul. It will also hold its shape well when reefed and allow infinitely adjustable sail area.
What is so difficult about ensuring the boom angle is correct for furling or reducing sail? that is what the topping lift and or rod kicker is for. Never experienced problems with the wrong angle.
Reducing sail area quickly is easy. Pull the bit of string that winds the sail in while controlling it with the outhaul. Easy with 2 people and not so difficult alone if you set it up like I did with the reefing line on the starboard side of the hatch and the outhaul on the port. Stand in the companionway and do it. Of course my boats were relatively small at 10m and 11.5 and it gets a bit more awkward with some of today's ultra wide twin wheel 12m boats.
All the negatives come from people who do not own boats with in mast and although they are often keen to tell you about all the tricks they use to make their slab reefing work they seem unwilling to accept that you just have to learn a few simple techniques to get the best out of a different set up.
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