Dockhead
Well-Known Member
Unstick it. Knife not required.
In mast furling. Desirable?
- Thread starter pcatterall
- Start date
doug748
Well-Known Member
You are no doubt aware of this, seems to be available UK:
https://uk.boats.com/sailing-boats/1989-furia-332-9565770/
Looks a good buy and particularly attractive below decks. Not handily placed for your project though -) With any boat described as a good performer or even cruiser/racer you have to be careful adding things that can actually detract from it's value or the sailing performance that was designed into it. On such a boat an expensive radar on the mast could actually detract from the value as would a solar arch proudly erected by a previous owner.
I recently viewed an older well known 32 foot boat that ought to have made an asking price of c14k it was advertised at 12, reduced to 7, then failed to sell and was passed on within the family. The problem was that someone had fitted a roller furling main. This is an extreme case because the mast put it out of class but serves as an example of good intentions turning bad. Changing a mast is a challenge too far on most older boats.
In your case the Furia with furling main may well be a bargain because many will be put off by it, could work nicely to your advantage.
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Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
Absolutely. I mentioned earlier that I had a charter boat with a worn out baggy main that jammed and I took it to the charter company to fix, the boat was still usable. I let off the outhaul completely and used the spinnaker halyard wrapped round the mast to make fast the remaining sail. I was pi$$ed off and decided I'd get the charter company to un-jam it, so we motored to the nearest marina and they fixed it.
What happened? The wind had dropped from gusting F6 to a steady F4-5, so we wanted to let a bit more main out - a fold got caught and pulled out the slot. If I'd watched the main coming out, I'd have seen the first appearance of the fold and instead of continuing to crank it out, jamming it to the point where the furler would no longer move, I could have wound it in a bit and tried again - or only let it out on a starboard tack, which solved the problem completely. A bit like the issue I've had with battens catching in the lazyjacks, you don't continue cranking the hallyard when it starts to get stiff without investigating why.
It wasn't a difficult fix, and if I'd known then what I know now, it would never have resulted in a jam in the first place - the root cause was a very old, worn and baggy mainsail with the stiffness of spinnaker cloth. A recipe for disaster.
Jamming on the way out in this way happens when the baggiest part of the sail is coming out, so about mid-way out. You're not left with much mainsail hanging out when it jams, so it was relatively easy to tame it with the spinnaker halyard.
Jamming on the way in happens when the sail isn't wound tightly enough, so the mast fills before all the sail is in ... again, not much is left flapping about. Can usually be overcome by making the outhaul fast and continueing to furl, but it requires nice slidy stiff sailcloth.
My Selden systems have been pretty tolerant of boom position with anything from horizontal to lifted around 6 inches by the topping lift - but again with stiff, well cared for sailcloth.
Jamming or failure of the mechanism I have not yet encountered or heard of on a modern system - doesn't mean it can't happen so maintenance is essential. I would wager it's as rare as a car jamming solid on the mast track.
I have had a slight jam due to a stuck on sail number detaching and balling up on the way out, requiring a bit of force to eject it through the slot.
Sea Change
Well-Known Member
Another interesting failure mode: a few years back I tried to help out an older couple with their jammed in mast main. We were in the same anchorage in Rona. The yard monkey who had bent on their sails had either been a bit too enthusiastic tightening the shackle at the top, or had used too long a pin.
I forget the exact details but the extra few turns of thread protruding from the shackle had caught on something inside the mast, and eventually this had led to a complete jam.
He sailed back to Oban under genoa, with the main wrapped round his mast.
I forget the exact details but the extra few turns of thread protruding from the shackle had caught on something inside the mast, and eventually this had led to a complete jam.
He sailed back to Oban under genoa, with the main wrapped round his mast.
Dockhead
Well-Known Member
Yes, that's it.
What you know after some experience and learning:
1. Just don't use a baggy dacron mainsail, especially a baggy and STIFF one which hasn't been used in a long time. You know this is trouble waiting to happen.
2. Do maintain and lubricate the system, and keep the foil properly tensioned.
3. Use the system right when furling and unfurling, correct boom angle, bit of wind in the sail, and OBSERVE the process and stop immediately, and think, if something goes wrong.
4. Never force it if it starts to get hard to furl or unfurl. Stop and look.
5. If you mess up and get some kind of jam, clear it by working the sail in and out in small increments, whilst pulling DOWN on the boom with the vang and mainsheet to pull down on the leech.
With this formula, you have basically zero problems. Basically everyone who owns a boat with in-mast furling figures this out within a couple of years, if not earlier, and that's why people who own the system tend almost universally to trust and like it.
benjenbav
Well-Known Member
Didn’t see this thread until today. I’ve found it fascinating and appreciate all the comments and views expressed.
It’s a topic that interests me because if I ever buy another boat I will be master and crew, rolled into one and will want to control the rig and sails as simply as possible.
At SIBS I had a conversation with Kemp Sails about in-mast furling. Their view was that modern mast furling systems were very reliable but recommended, for my use case, vectran sails and above all - in order to keep life simple - an unbattened mainsail.
It’s a topic that interests me because if I ever buy another boat I will be master and crew, rolled into one and will want to control the rig and sails as simply as possible.
At SIBS I had a conversation with Kemp Sails about in-mast furling. Their view was that modern mast furling systems were very reliable but recommended, for my use case, vectran sails and above all - in order to keep life simple - an unbattened mainsail.
fearmhuir
Well-Known Member
Another vote for Tides Marine track. Ten years now with perfect sail hoists and drops, no jams, no broken slides. Also, single line slab reefing is easier as the slides don't hang up on the track, even off the wind.
wonkywinch
Well-Known Member
If you have a Z Spars mast, you have no choice. They make the slot and sail space small to preserve the integrity and strength of the mast such that there is no room for (vertical) battens.
Laser310
Well-Known Member
I have sailed pretty long passages on three boats with furling mains - one was in-mast furling and two were in-boom furling.
all the boats were ~50ft or larger.
In-mast was more reliable. It mostly just worked.., but it was not that easy to do. loads were often high, and grinding the winch was tiresome. We did not generally go head to wind.., but rather just luffed the sail. On the ocean, with large waves, going head to wind is not much fun...
In-boom was just to finicky for me. On both boats, we had an instance where we had to drop the main without furling it in the boom, because it jammed - we could re-hoist and try again.., but eventually we just wanted to go in. This is after it working fine for days and days..., so it's not as if we were clueless. We had all the lines marked to get the boom at the perfect angle etc.., but sometimes it just didn't cooperate.
Trade-offs for in-mast have been well covered.., i just think that at 10m, we are pretty well on the side where the benefits don't equal the performance costs. Maybe if you will always be sailing in quite a windy area, then it might be okay.
all the boats were ~50ft or larger.
In-mast was more reliable. It mostly just worked.., but it was not that easy to do. loads were often high, and grinding the winch was tiresome. We did not generally go head to wind.., but rather just luffed the sail. On the ocean, with large waves, going head to wind is not much fun...
In-boom was just to finicky for me. On both boats, we had an instance where we had to drop the main without furling it in the boom, because it jammed - we could re-hoist and try again.., but eventually we just wanted to go in. This is after it working fine for days and days..., so it's not as if we were clueless. We had all the lines marked to get the boom at the perfect angle etc.., but sometimes it just didn't cooperate.
Trade-offs for in-mast have been well covered.., i just think that at 10m, we are pretty well on the side where the benefits don't equal the performance costs. Maybe if you will always be sailing in quite a windy area, then it might be okay.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Owain and Rob have a lot of experience of making in mast furling sails. The mainsail they made for my Bavaria was excellent. Furling was better than the original dacron, partly because of the stable shape and partly the finish of Vectran. I don't buy the idea that performance is an issue with 10m boats - the small loss of area is more than offset by the ability to more closely match sail area to conditions, particularly when you are in the marginal 15-20 knot wind range where modern boats that are mainsail driven start feeling as if they need a reef, so losing 25% mainsail area at a stroke. It is the rig design that is important not the size of boat.
Sea Change
Well-Known Member
This is fine if you have a generous sail area.
Most of the boats I've owned will carry full sail up to 20kt. I think in-mast could be a compromise on these designs.
Like any design decision, you've got to look at the overall picture. In-mast is probably just fine if the boat was originally designed to have it. It may be less fine if the boat was designed for slab reefing.
Dockhead
Well-Known Member
You do NOT want retrofit in-mast fueling. And don't ask me how I know.
Or do, I don't care. My father bought a boat with retrofit in-mast fueling. It doesn't work like real in-mast furling. It's awful.
Laser310
Well-Known Member
sorry but I disagree...
The modern fractional rig is highly tunable through a wide range of wind speeds, up to the point a reef is needed.
Put some good sails on the fractional rig; sails that don't lose their shape in stronger winds, and the boat will sail well until it's time to reef.
A furling rig, on the other hand, is not tuneable to any meaningful degree, and a partially furled mainsail is terrible on any point of sail except deep downwind. The leech is tight, with no twist. The sails frequently develop a "bubble" at the luff when partially furled. This is a high-drag shape that causes excessive heeling when sailing upwind. Tacking angles will be poor.
For me though, the biggest problem is that after a lifetime of tweaking sails to go 1/10 of a kt faster, or a degree higher.., i just couldn't live with a furling main on a boat this size; a 10m boat should be fun to sail! On, say, a huge Oyster, It's somehow more tolerable.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
So you like "tweaking" to get that extra fraction of a knot - I don't. Devil makes work for idle hands. Modern boats like my Bavaria 33 have more than enough "performance" in terms of the ability to make good passage times with minimal effort. They make no pretensions to be "performance" boats and just do not respond to the sort of tricks that you can do when you have a rig with miles of rope to pull your sails this way and that and a hull/keel/rudder design that responds to such things. I don't recognise your description of furling mains - you clearly had rubbish sails The Vectran main I had made was nothing like that, neither was the original for the first couple of years after which it did go baggy hence the change to a better sail.
The only thing that is relevant is good sails designed to make the most of what you have and I found as a single hander in my mid 70s plenty to keep me busy with sails including an asymmetric on a furler that Kemps made for me. Plenty of fun to be had with simple well sorted furling sails. I was reminded today of how things have moved on. I swapped my Bavaria for a Golden Hind 31 as project to full my last few active years. I have spent time and too much money trying to make it easy to handle. The old fashioned masthead rig is just so poor and inefficient . Miles of string when converted to slab reefing and bringing lines back to the cockpit, expensive mast track so that the main goes up and down properly and so on. I took it out today for the first time with the full suit of new sails which work well, but the amount of work to prepare for a day out and putting it away at the end is far greater than on the Bavaria. I live 20 minutes drive from home to boat in a marina berth. With the Bavaria it was simple. Start the engine, cast off the mooring warps, 3 minutes motor to open water, position the boat with the wind just off the starboard bow, engage autopilot, pull the furling lines for both sails and away you go. Same coming back, just 2 lines to pull and all the sail goes away.
I am not trying to persuade you to give up your tweaking if that is what grabs you, just pointing out that there are many different ways of having "fun" with a boat and it is clear that many find furling sails make having that fun much more accessible. Rather than looking for reasons not to have it maybe you should read the posts made on this thread by those that have - the vast majority of whom would previously have owned boats with "conventional" rigs. I say conventional because probably close to a majority of cruising boats in the last 25 years or so have been built with in mast furling reflecting the choice of buyers.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
You are right. Add on furling had its brief moment in the sun 30 years ago but quickly died as people realised what an awful idea it was. Many of the nay sayers base their negative views on those things, but they are nothing like the systems fitted to production boats.
Laser310
Well-Known Member
well.., i did start with "for me..."
On big boats I think it's fine - I just remembered another boat I sailed on that had in mast furling- an Oyster 625 that I sailed about 1800nm on. It worked great, and definitely made night watches in squally tropical waters easy. We did not go head to wind to reef on that boat either, but either the reefing was hydraulic or led to an electric winch - i can't remember. Of course, that can lead to big problems.., but it didn't in this case.
Again.., for me.., there is also the aesthetic aspect; gazing up at a well built sail, with a beautiful shape, that is perfectly trimmed for the conditions, and doing its job with splendid efficiency, is one of the joys of sailing.
Anyway, I will also mention that I think many boats don't do slab reefing as easily as they might. Many boats are rigged for single-line reefing, when having two lines would be much easier. The single line setup often develops a lot of friction as one approaches the final trim position, and often ends up with not enough tension on the clew, making the foot too loose and the sail more powerful than is needed, and not as close-winded as might be desired. It's also just harder to grind the winch, and if using the electric winch you might break something before getting the proper tension.
It's just easier to have separate lines for the clew and tack. Many bigger boats and race boats just have a short strop on the mast that gets attached to a loop on the sail at the new tack position. On my boat, I don't have strops, so I just run up and move the cunningham (which is led aft) to the new tack.
The advantage is there is very little load on the reef line that leads to the clew, it doesn't bind up when the new tack is at the boom, and I can easily get the foot of the sail as flat as I need it. De-powering is the reason we reef in the first place, but I often see people sailing with reefed mains that are way too loose on the foot.
Star-Lord
Well-Known Member
Lots of talk about electric winch / handle. If the sail has battons and lazy lines the electric winch will rip everything out if a batton catches on lazy lines.
For a 10 m boat I would go standard.
I think I mast furling would be great if the advice here is followed - proper maintenance and technique. Suitable for older sailors and larger boats. Tom Cunliffe is a convert to in mast furling!!
Laser310
Well-Known Member
I heard somewhere..., that on their round the world rallys, Oyster has had to do many rig repairs for damage caused by powered winches.
Snowgoose-1
Well-Known Member
Just wondering if electrical winches have a user controllable clutch like hand battery drills
GEM43
Well-Known Member
Not on my boat, we have Andersen electric winches, no "clutch". The winches do slow down as they are increasingly loaded. Though I never use an electric winch for furling the mainsail nor a manual winch to furl the genoa. Hand cranked - it is then easy to feel "excess friction" caused by something wrong.