IN in EU or OUT from EU

[Daydream believer]

Slightly off thread, but i like the interviews with youngsters trying to get to EU countries - in particular the UK.
When asked why? They often state it is to be re united with their families.
Well does it not say a lot how their families must really care about their kids if they left them behind in the first place

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

As a retired person I do not see me benefiting from waiting 10 weeks to see a NHS consultant ( albeit a Greek--- with, I might add, apparently little concern for my health). Being unable to get an appointment in under 8 weeks for a scan & walking into a hospital & not hearing any English voices in the queues & throngs of people milling around.
& before anyone makes the point--- we may employ foreign people in the hospitals, by why do we employ them to treat foreigners.

The world is changing around us; if you happen to go to a Greek hospital, there are huge queues of people, all kinds but mainly Brits and Albanians; the Greeks are the minority.

 

[Retired in Crete]

if you happen to go to a Greek hospital, there are huge queues of people, all kinds but mainly Brits and Albanians; the Greeks are the minority.

I have been treated in hospitals in Athens, Heraklion and Agios Nikolaos.

I have no wish to be disrespectful, but what you say is just not true.

John

 

[Daydream believer]

The world is changing around us; if you happen to go to a Greek hospital, there are huge queues of people, all kinds but mainly Brits and Albanians; the Greeks are the minority.

To be honest I do not give a sh..t about the Greeks ,I care about my fellow British. (& note I said British)

I spoke to a Belgian who ( & I believe him) stated that the Belgian health service was one of the best until overload due to immigration ruined it.
I suspect that is happening in the other more advanced EU countries as well.
I have spoken to a Dutch headmistress who had to resign from a long career due to the stress of trying to deal with an overload of non Dutch speaking children in the 3 schools that she was responsible for.
Yes the world is changing- & not for the better in the EU, due to ridiculous policies.
The idea of the EU could be fantastic but it has been ruined by miss direction and unaccountability. The suggestion that being inside it means we can influence anything is rubbish, it is a lost cause. We would be better off out of it. However, the fear of uncertainty frightens many so we will vote for in. Then see how bad things will get. It will be seen as a free vote to do whatever they want

 

[CaptainCava]

Any thought that we will have any influence at all if we vote to stay in, is head in the sand stupidity.
At a time when you would think we should have had at least a little bargaining power, Cameron came back with absolutely nothing of any significance.
If we vote to stay in now (after such a humiliating Cameron fiasco), they will know that they can totally ignore us forever.
For God's sake WAKE UP PEOPLE!

 

[Niander]

Lets hope people aren't taken in by the daily frightening techniques of Cameron and his cohorts!

 

[Bobc]

This is definitely worth a read. A very sensible and balanced argument.

http://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/david-davis-mp-the-eu-hasnt-created-any-jobs/

 

[rgarside]

In terms of recent history, and the light it sheds on intentions within Europe, I am finding Bernard Connolly's book " The Rotten Heart of Europe" very interesting. It deals primarily with the ERM crisis, but much of the behaviour seems to be recognisable today.

 

[fergie_mac66]

Ahhhhhhhhh bernard-connolly.. Recent EU THE European Court of Justice ruled a little while ago that the European Union can lawfully suppress political criticism of its institutions and of leading figures, sweeping aside English Common Law and 50 years of European precedents on civil liberties.
The EU's top court found that the European Commission was entitled to sack Bernard Connolly, a British economist dismissed in 1995 for writing a critique of European monetary integration entitled The Rotten Heart of Europe.
The ruling stated that the commission could restrict dissent in order to "protect the rights of others" and punish individuals who "damaged the institution's image and reputation". The case has wider implications for free speech that could extend to EU citizens who do not work for the Brussels bureaucracy.court


This is A ruling worthy of the USSR. The thought that we could be subject to it is shivering.

 

[fergie_mac66]

Odds changing people are putting money on leave ! Big amounts.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...xit-bookies-slash-odds-brexit-leave-vote-bets

 

[Bobc]

In terms of recent history, and the light it sheds on intentions within Europe, I am finding Bernard Connolly's book " The Rotten Heart of Europe" very interesting. It deals primarily with the ERM crisis, but much of the behaviour seems to be recognisable today.

Yes, it's an enlightening read.

 

[Bobc]

Interesting article just dropped into my inbox that I thought I'd share:-

Courtesy of Moneyweek...



There’s been plenty of talk about it – from the Treasury warning of an 18% fall in prices (in relative terms), to landlord groups warning of a (mild) fall in rents.

But what’s very clear when you dig through the research is that no one really knows what would happen.

The truth is, I suspect it would mean very little to anywhere outside London (the focus of foreign ownership in Britain). And it probably wouldn’t have that much impact there either.

In fact, I think it’s more interesting to look at why all these organisations want to paint such a grim picture – and how that would change if we actually do vote to leave the EU…

The psychology behind painting a disaster scenario

The “catastrophe” arguments for a post-Brexit house price collapse are all flawed (and that’s ignoring the fact that they also assume that falling house prices is a bad thing in the first place).

Sterling will collapse! Fine, but if that’s your argument then logically that would bring a flood of foreign money into the property market – as it did in 2008/09 (which would also prop up sterling).

Interest rates will go up! Well, no they really won’t. If Brexit were to cause a recession (again, it’s not clear why it would), then raising rates is the last thing the Bank of England would do – regardless of whether inflation picked up as a result of a weaker pound.

The reality is that, despite the protestations of economists, no one can predict the future.

So rather than indulge in endless scenario analysis, it makes more sense to look at the psychology behind why various organisations are putting out quite such apocalyptic visions of Brexit – and how that would change if we actually vote “Leave”.

Let’s start with the government. The motivation here is obvious. Clearly, David Cameron doesn’t want Europe to be a live issue in the Tory party anymore. Unlike Nicola Sturgeon’s stand on independence for Scotland, he most definitely wants this to be the last EU referendum for a generation – if not forever. And he’s effectively staked his political career – his legacy, even – on doing it.

If "Leave" wins, it’ll be tricky for him to stay as prime minister. If “Remain” wins, but only by a small margin, he’ll be spending the rest of his time in office watching his back, rather than getting on with running the country.

So it makes sense for Cameron and George Osborne to make big, scary claims before the vote. They don’t just want Remain to win. They want ‘Leave’ to be utterly trounced. They want to put the eurosceptics back in their box.

As for the other catastrophists – the likes of the OECD and the IMF are bound to stand up for the EU. These are clubs. They like other clubs. They’d like it if the world was run by one great big club. So they don’t want to see anyone walking out of a club and making it less popular. This isn’t a backroom conspiracy – it’s a simple case of one transnational organisation standing up for another.

What about companies? Again, companies – particularly big companies – are conservative institutions. They’re used to things being done in a certain way. Change involves hassle, paperwork and uncertainty. Taking clear sides in politics – particularly against the government – involves risks to brands and influence. So again, it makes sense for them to be largely on the Remain side.

The point is that on this side of the vote, the weight of effort and lobbying power is focused on presenting everything in the worst possible light.

The post-Brexit U-turn

However, once the vote is over, all of that lobbying power will shift focus. If Britain votes to leave, then the calculus changes.

Various facets of the Leave camp differ on lots of details, particularly immigration. But a desire for continued free trade remains a key plank of pretty much every Leave constitution (apart from perhaps the far left, who seem pretty confused about where they stand on the EU in any case).

So no one in government in the UK wants trade barriers to go up. And none of the companies involved want that either. If trade barriers go up, that creates losers on both sides of the barriers. The buyer has to pay more. The seller is unable to sell as much.

Neither buyer nor seller wants that. So they will bring pressure to bear on their host governments – however spiteful they are inclined to be – for a smooth transition to take place.

Same goes for all the City institutions. Everyone who is threatening to up sticks and leave the City will shift focus to making sure that passporting and all the other things they value about the EU remain in place.

Because, again, the calculus changes. Do you really want to leave London? The British might not be that fond of bankers at the moment, but are you going to enjoy a warmer welcome or a more flexible labour market in France? Do you want to shift your institutions to countries that are ultimately still hostile to "the Anglo-Saxon model"? Don’t think so.

Certain countries in the EU might want to “punish” Britain. But those with more rebellious populations might want to think twice. It’s worth remembering that Britain is not uniquely eurosceptic. Polls suggest that nations across the EU would be having exactly the same discussion as we are now were they given the opportunity of a vote on the topic.

Does it make more sense to act like an angry spurned lover? Or like a magnanimous former colleague? It’s always hard to tell with the EU. But one is at least as likely as the other.

My point is, the apocalypse scenarios are very unlikely – and not just because they are genuinely unlikely. It’s because if we do vote to leave, the focus of most parties’ efforts will move to making the transition as smooth and as positive as possible.

 

[dom]

Bob, compared to the Boris and Gove stuff there's a lot of good points here and I fully agree that financial firms feel happier in London

Just a quick point though, why not post the first few lines and then a link? Newspapers and mags can get funny about full reprints like this as they want the traffic.

 

[Bobc]

Bob, compared to the Boris and Gove stuff there's a lot of good points here and I fully agree that financial firms feel happier in London

Just a quick point though, why not post the first few lines and then a link? Newspapers and mags can get funny about full reprints like this as they want the traffic.

It was an email, not a web page, so no URL to link to.

 

[dom]

Oh, OK.

Read more excellent fin news here >>>> http://moneyweek.com/money-morning-why-voting-leave-wouldnt-result-in-armageddon/

That should keep them happy

 

[Bobc]

Dom leads 30-15

 

[dom]

But I suspect you might win the Brexit Grand Slam!

 

[Oldfellah]

Not sure if it has already been linked by just in case here is the link to a superb John Major article on the sham of the Brexit campaign.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...te-blow-40billion-black-hole-UK-finances.html

It really puts the arguments to leave in perspective. Vote to leave by all means but do so based on facts rather than alarmist half truths and outright untruths.

 

[Niander]

Too right i will be leaving for all the alarmist half truths and outright untruths of the remain sham and all their millionaire pals....

 

[Daydream believer]

Yesterday i was in a bar in boulogne & got speaking to the wife of a doctor who won the fastnet in 2005 overall on handicap- he showed me his rolex winners watch-- we had a long chat & i asked if the french newspapers had reported much about the uk referendum. She asked the doctor who asked the feeling of the 20 or so others to see if they thought it had been reported as a big deal. Generally they thought not.
I then asked her to ask them what they thought about us leaving. They felt it would be a pity for the eu but they understood our stance for sovreignty.
I asked how they felt about the eu
Generally they all agreed they wanted it for trade but 100% they all complained about eu regulation & they all wanted a trading organisation not what they have now
It was great fun asking the lady who then asked her husband who then questioned the crowd who then all replied as a group.
We had quite a friendly discussion about the eu.
It is clear that they are fed up to the teeth with immigration & dictats from unelected - yes even from the french who i though lived & breathed that sort of thing.
Perhaps the immigration problem will get solved by pressure from the eu population at large - eventually