Impact of tide on RPM

Athomson I do like your explanation. I wondered from the outset whether we are all to fixed on the boat moving through a homogeneous media (the water) when it is more complex because there are two very different media involved and perhaps the water is less homogeneous that we give credit.

I also agree my observations are wholly inadequate (scientifically). However they are a little uncanny in their consistency. I must motor upper and down the same stretch sometime!
Its a bit counter intuitive but it shouldn't be to sailors who are well used to the difference in apparent wind speed when we turn into the wind and find it blowing a gale. But in practice we all put a bit more power on when pushing the tide out of [at least mild] frustration at the lack of progress, so all our experience is "going against the tide = the sound of more RPM". And then there's the usually true "fighting against something takes more effort".
 
If an engine is at full throttle & his throttle lever is hard over & revs at 3500 rpm under load I would assume that the revs are being kept there by the govenor ( or whatever a diesel engine has to stop over revving) So if the load is lighter why does it still not rev at 3500 & stay at that all the time. Has the OP got an engine problem coming. does he need a service?
The governor sets the desired revs. Sometimes the engine can't meet that target for one reason or another.
 
The engine will need a higher RPM to achieve the same speed through the water if the boat is going with the tide.

Assuming no wind. Boat going 5 knots with 3 knots tide is pushing through the air at 8 knots. Same boat going against the tide is only pushing through the air at 2 knots. Less air drag = less power required.
That sounds plausible but, at the speeds we're talking about, I wonder whether the difference between an 8 knot and a 2 knot headwind would be noticeable on the rev counter?

Richard
 
The train analogy is good. Same as if you put the boat in a huge tank which was drifting with the tide and the boat was motoring in still water inside the tank. Speed (and therefore revs) would be the same. TIDE HAS NO EFFECT. Other factors, not tide related such as swell will have an effect. End of discussiony!
 
That sounds plausible but, at the speeds we're talking about, I wonder whether the difference between an 8 knot and a 2 knot headwind would be noticeable on the rev counter?

Richard
I doubt it; although the explanation is theoretically true on paper, if someone did the aerodynamics calculations the effects would be extremely tiny indeed.
 
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That sounds plausible but, at the speeds we're talking about, I wonder whether the difference between an 8 knot and a 2 knot headwind would be noticeable on the rev counter?

Richard
Whether its noticeable would depend on the amount of RPM already running. Easier to picture if you think about how many RPM would the engine need to run to stop the boat being blown downwind when there is a 6 knot wind acting on it? Its obviously not no RPM. We've moved well away from the OP question though:

"Given motoring against the tide, compared with with the tide, what impact would you expect on engine RPM. In other words if your engine will run at 3.500 rpm at full throttle in still water, how would a tidal stream effect rpm at the same full throttle?"

If a motor is at full throttle the only effect can be to slow the RPM as it meets more resistance. From full throttle even on a very stead precise tacho (which I've never seen on a boat) it probably won't be noticeable.
 
I can't recall if it has been noted, but the effect of tide on waves would make a difference. Wind over tide means that the wave peaks are closer together, and so there is more resistance to forward motion. Wind with tide spaces the wave peaks further apart, lessening the resistance to forward motion.
 
Diesel engines have governors, if a moderate load increase tries to slow the engine, the governor will automatically increase the fuel supply to maintain the chosen RPM.
(This doesn't apply to being over-propped, tied to a bollard, heavily fouled, towing etc, but we aren't discussing special cases. )
 
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The train analogy is good. Same as if you put the boat in a huge tank which was drifting with the tide and the boat was motoring in still water inside the tank. Speed (and therefore revs) would be the same. TIDE HAS NO EFFECT. Other factors, not tide related such as swell will have an effect. End of discussiony!
No good argument has ever ended with "End of (discussion)". In this case we know, from the OP's observation, that tide has an effect, so all that remains is to work out what the mechanism is.
 
TIDE HAS NO EFFECT
As discussed previously in the thread, tide has no direct effect on the boat. In a classroom that's sufficient, but out in the real world you need to go further. I explained earlier how the bow wave would be affected, and others have explained how wind effect would be different in each direction. As such we can say with certainty that while tide might not have a direct effect on the boat, it most certainly does have an effect on the energy required for the boat to travel at a given speed through the water.
 
Diesel engines have governors, if a moderate load increase tries to slow them down, the governor will automatically increase the fuel supply to maintain the chosen RPM.
Maybe. Unless the governor includes an "integral" component - ie one which steady increases the fuel supply for a constant lack of revs - applying a load will always slow down the engine a bit, because if it hit target revs the controller would see no need to increase the fuel supply.

But I have no idea how diesel engine governors work. Are they purely proportional (in the control sense) or do they include integral and/or differential components as well? Normal "spinning ball" steam engine regulators are proprtional only - one reason that Corliss valves were used for mill engines was that the governor on them included an integral component, ensuring a constant speed and therefore consistent product as looms came on and off line.
 
I would also be interested in how governors work in the real marine world.

I understand pretty well how a governor works on an aircraft propellor, and I suspect these are much more sophisticated.

My engine is turbo charged, and it is also quite noticeable as the turbo charger kicks in. I wonder if this is also a factor at the top end, as presumably the turbo almost certainly does not perform with linear progress.
 
Diesel engines have governors, if a moderate load increase tries to slow them down, the governor will automatically increase the fuel supply to maintain the chosen RPM.
(This doesn't apply to being over-propped, tied to a bollard, heavily fouled, towing etc, but we aren't discussing special cases. )
Does that apply even at full throttle as in the OP? Full throttle is wide open fuel supply isn't it? Unless the system is designed to hold back a bit so that there is some more to give even at full throttle
 
Does that apply even at full throttle as in the OP? Full throttle is wide open fuel supply isn't it? Unless the system is designed to hold back a bit so that there is some more to give even at full throttle
It would not be wide open fuel supply. My digger recently went into a massive "race" mode & started to rev like h..ll. the driver shoved some rags into the air intake to stop it because the usual stop sequence did not work. The governor is definitely there to stop over revving & the engine will give more revs if allowed & not held back by load etc.
 
I would also be interested in how governors work in the real marine world.

I understand pretty well how a governor works on an aircraft propellor, and I suspect these are much more sophisticated.

My engine is turbo charged, and it is also quite noticeable as the turbo charger kicks in. I wonder if this is also a factor at the top end, as presumably the turbo almost certainly does not perform with linear progress.
Unlikely until load starts to cause engine speed to fall off. The giverner will continue to open to maintain the pre-set RPM, but once it is fully open, the engine speed will start to drop as the load increases. As RPM falls off so the turbo boost will reduce, compounding the effect as the engine begins to labour.

A diesel runs away either because the giverner has stuck wide open, or because a wear or a fault allows engine oil into the combustion chamber and trhen engine runs uncontrollably on that. Scary when it happens! Seen it several times, and can only be stopped by cutting off the air supply, or stalling it - which usually destroys the clutch! Cheaper than losing the engine though!
 
Depends on the propeller power curve :) If the propeller power curve is matched with engine power at max rpm = 3500, an increase in resistance would tilt upwards the propeller power curve which would then cross the engine power at a lower rpm; in other words the propeller would need more power at those given rpm which the engine is not able to provide --> lower rpm.
If the engine is being used at max rpm and its rpm does not decrease with an increase in outside resistance, it means the propeller power curve is not well matched, it's "too low" : the governor keeps steady rpm increasing the fuel delivery (hence engine delivered power) up to the (new) required propeller power.

Does that apply even at full throttle as in the OP? Full throttle is wide open fuel supply isn't it? Unless the system is designed to hold back a bit so that there is some more to give even at full throttle
 
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