Babylon
Well-known member
I hope you sail better than you punctuate.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" - Charles Darwin
- Thread starter awol
- Start date
I hope you sail better than you punctuate.
Wansworth
Well-known member
Sorry...I am probably going native and my Spanish keyboard does nt do apostrophies!
mjcoon
Well-known member
CD did sail quite a long way, but maybe he was purely a passenger, though IIRC bunking in with the captain...
Mike.
Babylon
Well-known member
I can just about sail well enough to know what you meant! Blueboatman
Well-known member
Re MJCoon . Bunking in with the captain I would hope he wasn't tooo adaptable.
Mogy, British Steel is here in Dartmouth for the regatta, still looks the business but for me Chay, Shane Acton and others ex forces were real inspiration because they all understood that it all starts within, a mindset if you like, the rest is details and endlessly learning and experiencing by getting out there and doing it.
British Steel really does look still a sexy powerful weatherly machine though!
Mogy, British Steel is here in Dartmouth for the regatta, still looks the business but for me Chay, Shane Acton and others ex forces were real inspiration because they all understood that it all starts within, a mindset if you like, the rest is details and endlessly learning and experiencing by getting out there and doing it.
British Steel really does look still a sexy powerful weatherly machine though!
Lee_Shaw
New member
You sound like a baccy chewing survivalist from Missourri.
"Weez gow-na have us a leeyanching boy"
Wansworth
Well-known member
Blueboatman......I agree he had inner fortitude which I guess came from himself and from his training.I am now having doubts about my assertion he may well have been "Ignorant" of the yachting norms but his self confidence meant that he was not held back like normal folk who have a very fertile imagination and have read too many books!
Blueboatman
Well-known member
Imagine falling out with your crew mate when you both have elected to row the bloody North Atlantic together!
zarathustra
New member
I would like to think anyone sailing knows how to sail, otherwise they wouldn't get very far, but we all make mistakes and have distractions and our learning curve has to start somewhere. I think its fairer to refrain from judging others or assuming what they do or don't know and only consider our own knowledge/skills.
Being scared of what you don't know is hardly useful to anyone, better to be encouraged by what you do know.
awol
Well-known member
It is impossible to avoid interactions with others either on the water or, for those that waste their time here, on the fora. Certain assumptions about these others are unavoidable and, depending on your expectations, a degree of satisfaction, pleasant surprise or disappointment are the likely outcome. Similarly, one makes certain assumptions about one's own abilities and it is only by analysing performance against some, probably arbitrary, criteria that we can gauge our own degree of competence. Active membership of a club, racing, etc. can provide a viable source of comparison. The inverse correlation between knowledge and accurate self-awareness of competence is a well documented phenomenon from which I suggest that being "encouraged by what you do know" is not the most helpful attitude towards enhancing "knowledge/skills".
Incidentally, I claimed "I am often scared by how little I know" - if I knew what it was I didn't know, then I would be an idiot for not allaying my fears by attempting to expand my knowledge in those areas.
Baggywrinkle
Well-known member
Reminds me of one of the few sensible things Donald Rumsfeld ever said ...
"The message is that there are known "knowns." There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know."
In regard to sailing most people attempt to reduce the 'known unknowns' through training, education and experience but often stop there and never ponder the question - What are my unknown unknowns?
Once you start doing that regularly, and it is true for all aspects of work and play, then you get a better appreciation for the original quote "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." - not necessarily ignorance of the subject in question, but ignorance of ones own ignorance.
"The message is that there are known "knowns." There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know."
In regard to sailing most people attempt to reduce the 'known unknowns' through training, education and experience but often stop there and never ponder the question - What are my unknown unknowns?
Once you start doing that regularly, and it is true for all aspects of work and play, then you get a better appreciation for the original quote "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." - not necessarily ignorance of the subject in question, but ignorance of ones own ignorance.
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alan_d
Well-known member
I entirely agree, yet it is the saying for which he is most ridiculed.
Which takes us back to Socrates. “True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing.”
zarathustra
New member
Sensible???? Moronic remark imo.
xxyyzz
New member
Aside from the tortured language making it sound like gibberish, it's a valid point there are things we don't know we don't know.
I recall from exams, I was always most wary of those where it seemed too easy.
zarathustra
New member
is it really necessary to tell the public this, as some lame excuse for actions taken by his department, "There are things we don't know".... No S*** Sherlock
xxyyzz
New member
Aye well, in context it was a pretty poor excuse, to a situation where they had no good excuse.
What did you expect to hear from Rummy?
LittleSister
Well-known member
It was sensible only insofar as he was obfuscating, and clearly deliberately avoided talking about the real issue - the things which were claimed as fact (e.g. WMD) which were later shown to be untrue. Maybe you could call these 'unknown knowns', but that wouldn't help untangle the mess. Those asking the questions wanted to know if Rumsfeld et al knew they didn't know and were lying when they said they did, or were so clueless they didn't realise they had no reliable evidence for their claims.
Fortunately we don't get any of the former on these forums, I imagine, but quite possibly a fair bit of the latter!
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alan_d
Well-known member
I dislike Rumsfeld' politics and did not support the invasion of Iraq, but that does not mean that everything he says is rubbish. You have not understood the quotation; he was drawing a distinction between the things we realise we don't know (but which we can therefore take account of), and things that we do not realise we don't know (which we cannot take account of).
Examples may help.
Known unknown: I am about to anchor and realise that I do not know the time of local high water. I can take account of this by finding it out, or by allowing for the uncertainty in my choice of anchoring depth and the amount of chain I deploy.
Unknown unknown: I am following an unfamiliar buoyed channel but do not realise one of the buoys is off-station and consequently run aground. I was unaware of my ignorance of the buoy's movement so could not make allowances for it.
Whether the USA (or I) should have known about a particular unknown unknown is a separate issue.
zarathustra
New member
I have not misunderstood.
I didn't need to hear his tedious nonsense the first time, we know there are things he did and didn't know, we also know he deliberately mislead the public to fulfill his own agenda, it was a very lame effort, a miserable excuse and besides that it is totally unnecessary to tell anyone there are things we don't know, and I don't think it is worth quoteing here. There are things we don't know, yes that is true but is it really necessary to repeat that to anyone with a brain.
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Alfie168
Well-known member
I've been sailing for over 50 years...mostly dinghies, but some cruising, but I've had fairly long absences from sailing, and my, how you forget simple stuff, and I'd never dare call myself an 'experienced' sailor because the gaps in my knowledge are legion.
All I would contribute is that no matter how qualified/certified/race proven/ expert/competent or whatever, you are......things will always go wrong, and you won't always be able to extricate yourself without making mistakes or looking a prat. Mostly we sort it out without anybody seeing, but occasionally its very embarassing....anyone ever got stuck on a lee shore?...only in a dinghy thankfully in my case, but the on lookers made it embarrassing enough, and occasionally the unforseen brings tragic results..Rob James springs to mind.
Thats the nature of sailing and we are all learners, just at different levels and it never stops, so I'd say cut the people with less than perfect boat handling skills or knowledge a bit of slack, as thats me and you and everybody else on a bad day.
Anyone who reckons they've got this sailing lark cracked..just remind me to give you a wide berth.
Tim
All I would contribute is that no matter how qualified/certified/race proven/ expert/competent or whatever, you are......things will always go wrong, and you won't always be able to extricate yourself without making mistakes or looking a prat. Mostly we sort it out without anybody seeing, but occasionally its very embarassing....anyone ever got stuck on a lee shore?...only in a dinghy thankfully in my case, but the on lookers made it embarrassing enough, and occasionally the unforseen brings tragic results..Rob James springs to mind.
Thats the nature of sailing and we are all learners, just at different levels and it never stops, so I'd say cut the people with less than perfect boat handling skills or knowledge a bit of slack, as thats me and you and everybody else on a bad day.
Anyone who reckons they've got this sailing lark cracked..just remind me to give you a wide berth.
Tim
