If this is true, how (& why?) does anyone stay in Turkey?

[[29051]]

I don't think these rumours are lies exactly. Just human nature. I think they circulate like a lot of urban myths because a lot of people edit the story just a little. Instead of saying "I met someone, who knew someone' people tend to shorten the link to just one person between them and the incident. Add a little exaggeration each time, and you soon have the story. Like the constantly circulating myths of a stranger in a supermarket warning someone of some danger after being done a small favour. Or how Penn and Teller recreated the Indian rope trick - I think, it may be just a rumour too.

 

[BobnLesley]

T

...couldn't get a blue card...never asked to show the card and when we check out in Ayvalik again they never asked...pump out wasn't working...why don't the G C or what other Gov body , who want to bring in all this black and grey rule , Monitor them and make sure that they have proof that there tank are pumped out , it would not be that difficult to work out X amount of people ,X amount of days...

That's perhaps still part of the problem?
We were overwintering in Yat Marin the year they were first talking of starting the Blue Card scheme (2010 or 11) and for one of the regular weekly Skipper's Meetings, it was arranged for a man from the relevant Regional Government Department to come and explain it; at that time it was only applicable to the SW corner of Turkey, perhaps it still is?
As we arrived, each of us was given a small leaflet giving basic details of the scheme and listing all of the available pump-out stations; the chap then began his presentation by explaining the reason for the scheme's introduction: "Too many boats, in peak season there are 12,000 boats in the region." I 'do' numbers, so whilst listening to the rest of the discourse, I counted up the pump-out stations and did a little mental arithmetic; and when it came time for the 'any questions' section of his presentation, I enquired as to 'where will the rest of the boats go to get pumped out?' Because if those pump-out stations/boats in service at that time worked 24/7 to pump-out 12,000 boats just once each week, the time allowed for each pump out - including mooring-up and casting off - was somewhere around 3 minutes 36 seconds; I know that I couldn't even tie-up that fast!

 

[macd]

Vic: re your last paragraph: that was seriously considered by the authorities, and may even be in force. Trouble is, the 'X' was 50 litres per person per day. That's a big holding tank.

Bobnlesley: the scheme became nationwide last January. The infrastructure is thin to non-existant in much of the country outside Mugla and Antalya provinces (and patchy even there).

 

[jimbaerselman]

Chinese whispers . . .

The unbelievable part of Max K's quote was the size of the fine.

I can confirm that in the past, a cupful of diesel, or bubbles in the water from showering on deck, have been reason for people to report "pollution" to the Turkish authorities, and that this has given rise to fines. The scale of fines rarely exceeded a few hundred euros equivalent.

Frequency of these events were low - operating 24 charter boats in the region, we had a spate of such events (about 4!) in our second year of operations, and not more than one or two a year afterwards up to 1995. I didn't follow the trend since then, so I don't know the current reality.

The motivation for such reports was unclear. But these were early days of yacht charter in Turkey, and our agent speculated that gulets regarded us competition, and were keeping watch and reporting any such events. Since he owned some gulets, he was in a reasonable position to speculate.

Another Chinese whisper doing the rounds is "helicopters are patrolling to check pollution discharge". This seems to be based on the observation that helicopters have quite often been seen flying around the Gocek area.

Just compare the cost of operating a helicopter with the cost of operating a RIB. Add the the fact that a helicopter can't take action if (and the 2 "ifs" are a big enough difficulty in their own right) 1. pollution is detected, and 2. the boat's identity is established.

Stretches credibility, eh.

 

[RichardS]

Chinese whispers . . .

The unbelievable part of Max K's quote was the size of the fine.

I can confirm that in the past, a cupful of diesel, or bubbles in the water from showering on deck, have been reason for people to report "pollution" to the Turkish authorities, and that this has given rise to fines. The scale of fines rarely exceeded a few hundred euros equivalent.

Is showering on deck not permitted? That must mean that doing the washing-up is not permitted which surely means that a grey-water holding tank is needed.

Now that does stretch credibility!

Richard

 

[sailaboutvic]

Is showering on deck not permitted? That must mean that doing the washing-up is not permitted which surely means that a grey-water holding tank is needed.

Now that does stretch credibility!

Richard

I not sure but I don't think showering on deck is not permitted , it the using of a product that will pollute which isn't , I can't see how clear fresh water can ever be class as pollution , on the other hand if they really want to make a case out , I supprose they could , unless you have the cash to fight it .
But why would there , I sure they don't really want to put of money coming into Turkey .
The bottom line we found and you have to remember this is our first time back in Turkey for 13 years , if you use common sense you not going to have a problem , ie do not pollute bays and harbour , put grey water that will be seen ( soapy water ) into the holding tank , and get the odd pump out when you can , just like you do in any other country .

 

[RichardS]

I not sure but I don't think showering on deck is not permitted , it the using of a product that will pollute which isn't , I can't see how clear fresh water can ever be class as pollution , on the other hand if they really want to make a case out , I supprose they could , unless you have the cash to fight it .
But why would there , I sure they don't really want to put of money coming into Turkey .
The bottom line we found and you have to remember this is our first time back in Turkey for 13 years , if you use common sense you not going to have a problem , ie do not pollute bays and harbour , put grey water that will be seen ( soapy water ) into the holding tank , and get the odd pump out when you can , just like you do in any other country .

I don't understand Vic.

I was assuming that using the deck shower would involve soap or shampoo but let's think about doing the washing up in the galley in an anchorage. There's no way that you can wash those greasy plates without washing-up liquid right? But, on every boat I've been on, when you've finished washing up, there's no way you can divert that sudsy washing-up water into the black water tank.

Surely the Turkish authorities are not expecting visitors to re-plumb their boats?

Richard

 

[NornaBiron]

I don't understand Vic.

I was assuming that using the deck shower would involve soap or shampoo but let's think about doing the washing up in the galley in an anchorage. There's no way that you can wash those greasy plates without washing-up liquid right? But, on every boat I've been on, when you've finished washing up, there's no way you can divert that sudsy washing-up water into the black water tank.

Surely the Turkish authorities are not expecting visitors to re-plumb their boats?

Richard

I think you're expected to pour soapy water into the loo and thence into the black tank if there is no grey tank.

 

[sailaboutvic]

I think you're expected to pour soapy water into the loo and thence into the black tank if there is no grey tank.

Yep that's what we did , re showering on deck we use as little shampoo as poss , most of the time we just rising off salt , I know what your saying I agree it a very stupid rule .

 

[RichardS]

I think you're expected to pour soapy water into the loo and thence into the black tank if there is no grey tank.

Yep that's what we did , re showering on deck we use as little shampoo as poss , most of the time we just rising off salt , I know what your saying I agree it a very stupid rule .

Possible if you use a plastic bowl in the washing-up sink but we don't. Even if we used a bowl, our black water tanks are not very large and filling them with sink water would fill them up very quickly which would lead to the black water overflow discharging into the sea in less than 48 hours at anchor when we have not had time to go offshore thus ensuring that black water ends up in the sea in a small bay and exacerbates the problem the Turkish authorities are trying to avoid.

If this is a true statement of the Turkish rules as they stand I will not be visiting Turkey. Not because I couldn't buy a washing-up bowl but because I have no wish to visit a country which has such stupid self-defeating regulations when any marine scientist would laugh at the concept that the tiny volume of diluted washing-up liquid or shampoo from boats could have any impact on marine life.

I don't suppose that Turkey will miss me either!

Richard

 

[sailaboutvic]

Possible if you use a plastic bowl in the washing-up sink but we don't. Even if we used a bowl, our black water tanks are not very large and filling them with sink water would fill them up very quickly which would lead to the black water overflow discharging into the sea in less than 48 hours at anchor when we have not had time to go offshore thus ensuring that black water ends up in the sea in a small bay and exacerbates the problem the Turkish authorities are trying to avoid.

If this is a true statement of the Turkish rules as they stand I will not be visiting Turkey. Not because I couldn't buy a washing-up bowl but because I have no wish to visit a country which has such stupid self-defeating regulations when any marine scientist would laugh at the concept that the tiny volume of diluted washing-up liquid or shampoo from boats could have any impact on marine life.

I don't suppose that Turkey will miss me either!

Richard

Probliy not it really not that bad , it made out to be a lot worst then what it is , rules are made to be broken , and every one brake them , as I said you just got to use a bit of common sense

 

[sailaboutvic]

To be honesty Richard , we was in two minds to go , we enjoyed it , we just put the rules to one side and got on with the cruising , when you see the mess the gulets made you soon relies the little you made is a dr in the ocean , charter boat seen to just do what every they do .
We find unlike greece once you clear in , that it you don't see another officer again , Tho one day we was moored on to rock and the CG came right up to our bow and drop his anchor. We really tho we was going to be boarded , instead they all lit a fag , smokes it and then took off again
Has always there alway narrow minded people who put other off going to new ground , when there neave been there them self , it getting to the stage now where I thinking of stop posting on here any more , there a few then seen to only write on the forum to make argument s

 

[RichardS]

.... it getting to the stage now where I thinking of stop posting on here any more , there a few then seen to only write on the forum to make argument s

Please don't stop posting Vic. Your outpourings are always both interesting and entertaining.

I have been to Turkey several times on land holiday and on business and have always enjoyed the hospitality of the Turkish people. It's a pity their Government is a bit screwy. Mind you, the same probably applies to a lot of countries!

Richard

 

[Squeaky]

It's a pity their Government is a bit screwy. Mind you, the same probably applies to a lot of countries!
Richard

Good afternoon:
This is turning out to be my afternoon for posting of this forum, I guess.

Turkey does not, in fact, have a government at the moment as it has an interim government with the AK Party attempting to find a coalition partner or at least pretending to do so as it is believed they want to force another snap election in hopes of increasing their MPs so Mr Erdogan can rule unopposed especially as all opposition parties want to push the corruption charges from Dec 2013 which would involve him.

In addition it should be remembered that the Blue Card project was the result of the efforts of a clique from the Fethiye area who apparently saw it as a nice little earner if put into effect. I also attended a meeting which was addressed by a representative from TURMEPA (sp) which was pushing this scheme - he quoted some outlandish figures as to the amount of money they had invested i.e. $250,000 for software but was very evasive when it came to explaining how yachts which were designed and built 30 years ago could be remodeled to include large black and grey water tanks.

I later discovered that having forced a very large catamaran to move from a bay in the Fethiye area that they approached the governor in Mugla with their new Blue Card idea. He sent them away to get the feeling of those involved in the yachting industry locally however they apparently returned two weeks later to tell him everyone thought it a great idea so he approved it - of course the governor knew nothing about the yachting industry himself.

I eventually took part in a TV debate in Marmaris on the subject and learned that none of the local marina managers had heard of these people nor of their clever idea before it became law. I have reason to believe that the coast guard were not to happy to be lumbered with the enforcement of this law which might account for the patchy enforcement.

If I were a religious man I would be praying that the originators receive the "karma" due them but can only hope that enforcement peters out slowly which I think it will as long a people continue to buy the Blue Cards and have them available if and when someone in the coast guard remembers to ask about them - of course, not having one available would raise alarms and lead to more questions. I try to remember to give anyone in uniform what they ask for even if it is not exactly what he wants - it seems to be a little game that has to be played - he asks and I comply so everyone is happy. Of course, if I don't seem to comply he has to ask more questions.

Cheers

Squeaky

 

[jimbaerselman]

Is showering on deck not permitted? That must mean that doing the washing-up is not permitted which surely means that a grey-water holding tank is needed.
Now that does stretch credibility!
Richard

You're allowed to wash up and shower. But you're not allowed to discharge "grey water" - usually specified as anything producing bubbles or discolouring of any sort. And, yes, that implies your holding tanks should be big enough to store grey water.

In practice, we advised our clients to rinse as much as possible, use minimum soap/detergent, and to discharge very discreetly - darkness preferred.

 

[RichardS]

You're allowed to wash up and shower. But you're not allowed to discharge "grey water" - usually specified as anything producing bubbles or discolouring of any sort. And, yes, that implies your holding tanks should be big enough to store grey water.

In practice, we advised our clients to rinse as much as possible, use minimum soap/detergent, and to discharge very discreetly - darkness preferred.

I don't understand Jim. Washing up and showering both produce soapy grey-water so how can that be allowed if discharging grey-water is forbidden?

Richard

 

[Squeaky]

Good morning Richard:

I suggest the next time that you or your crew wash dishes that you or someone station themselves on the side deck over the sink discharge skin fitting and attempt to determine when the dish washing water is released. Unless the dish water is purposely agitated so as to have lots of suds I think you will have difficulty determining when the water was released from the sink. I think the same would apply to shower water which would have a different type of soap involved which not so inclined to produce lots of suds.

I have only had problems once with this sort of thing and that was in Finike in the mid-eighties when I was doing my laundry in a large bucket in the cockpit and threw the used water over the rail while one of the port police was standing on the quay in full view - actually think he was watching my efforts. He informed me that I should not be throwing the water into the sea but should pour it down a sink ashore. After that I emptied the bucket into the cockpit and it ran out through the cockpit drains producing no suds that were visible.

I think you are attempting to make a problem out of something that is not a problem if one uses a bit of common sense.

Cheers

Squeaky

 

[RichardS]

Good morning Richard:

I suggest the next time that you or your crew wash dishes that you or someone station themselves on the side deck over the sink discharge skin fitting and attempt to determine when the dish washing water is released. Unless the dish water is purposely agitated so as to have lots of suds I think you will have difficulty determining when the water was released from the sink. I think the same would apply to shower water which would have a different type of soap involved which not so inclined to produce lots of suds.

I have only had problems once with this sort of thing and that was in Finike in the mid-eighties when I was doing my laundry in a large bucket in the cockpit and threw the used water over the rail while one of the port police was standing on the quay in full view - actually think he was watching my efforts. He informed me that I should not be throwing the water into the sea but should pour it down a sink ashore. After that I emptied the bucket into the cockpit and it ran out through the cockpit drains producing no suds that were visible.

I think you are attempting to make a problem out of something that is not a problem if one uses a bit of common sense.

Cheers

Squeaky

Hi Squeaky

I'm just trying to find out exactly what the law is in Turkey i.e. is it legal to shower on the boat using soap and shampoo and is it legal to wash the dishes using washing up liquid if you do not have a grey-water tank or any way of diverting grey-water from the shower or sink into the black-water tank?

My cat has the shower outlets, sink outlets and cockpit drain outlets at least half a metre above the water line. When someone showers or drains the sink a line of bubbles trails out from between the hulls many metres down wind.

If it is illegal you can be sure that someone, somewhere will eventually fall foul of an overzealous official (see Sardinia anchoring thread) and get clobbered. I have no objection to paying a fine for doing something antisocial but a shower-water rule is ludicrous as one could drink used shower water without doing any harm, although it's not recommended for aesthetic reasons!

Richard

 

[Jock89]

''I heard on the CB of someone getting fined for dropping red diesel into Turkish waters.''

Excellent comment.
Jock

 

[jimbaerselman]

I don't understand Jim. Washing up and showering both produce soapy grey-water so how can that be allowed if discharging grey-water is forbidden?

Richard, you are allowed to produce as as much "pollution" as you wish on board. Turkish law includes "grey water" in its definition of pollution.

Turkish law does not allow you to discharge "pollution" into the sea.

In my experience this has been the case since at least 1984. It hasn't put 10's of thousands of yotties from enjoying and sailing around Turkey. The reason is that very few people indeed are fined. That's because they either have big enough holding tanks, or they know to discharge discreetly when in harbour. Squeaky puts it beautifully.

My solution: (more rinse + less soap/detergent) = (no bubbles + hardly detectable colouring). Add this to tolerant port attendants, who know the rules are impractical, and don't want to lose business. So they co-operate, turn blind eyes, record lots of non-existent pump-outs, and don't bother with their delegated responsibility to check blue cards.

Ignore the pump-out salesmen and software merchants who sold the (blue card + pump-out stations) solution to non-sailing politicians. I'm sure the politicos didn't get a percentage . . .