If I were an RNLI donor I would not be happy.

[Neil_Y]

Some comments by chanelyacht made me think, should a perentage of the monies collected for lifeboat services by the RNLI be distributed to these organisations?
http://www.i-lifeboat.org.uk/links/independent-lifeboats

I would think that many people who donate would also like to support the many independant services who don't have the ability to collect with a National presence.

You never know where you or your loved ones might run into trouble on the sea and it could be in a region covered by an independant lifeboat.

 

[Sybarite]

Some comments by chanelyacht made me think, should a perentage of the monies collected for lifeboat services by the RNLI be distributed to these organisations?
http://www.i-lifeboat.org.uk/links/independent-lifeboats

I would think that many people who donate would also like to support the many independant services who don't have the ability to collect with a National presence.

You never know where you or your loved ones might run into trouble on the sea and it could be in a region covered by an independant lifeboat.

A very good idea.

 

[Searush]

Interesting how many posts support the RNLI without alowing any questions on them and another clearly states its a sacred cow. Yes I can understand that as there is always a chance that we might rely on them one day.

Now others on here are policemen and many more policemen have paid with their lives serving the public now are they extended the same lack of criticism or opinions expressed - NO

Now others on here are Doctors and many work long hours in the NHS serving the public now are they (Drs & NHS) extended the same lack of criticism or opinions expressed - NO

I am sure others can think of other professions/organisations that some have commented on in either the way they are run or spend their money yet immediately Sybarite comments on the new lifeboat so many reach for their shotguns!! Interesting responses.

Actually, I don't think anyone minds fair, honest & useful criticism, unfortunately all we have had on here so far has been misinformed and deliberately misleading complaints. The responses have been largely well reasoned honest & accurate, but ignored.

So yes, the responses ARE interesting, but the criticisms are not well supported or accepted. It's nothing to do with sacred cows, just poor argument & weak complaints failing to win support.

By & large this forum is pretty fair & reasonable in it's views (if rather too right wing for my tastes ) but only a few are supporting the comments against the RNLI, most people seem to prefer the more balanced view.

Funny that innit?

 

[Sybarite]

The SNSM do not receive ANY government funding - same as the RNLI.

Yes, they will make a towage charge (rightly so) for vessels, but absolutely no charge for lifesaving.

Comparing the SNSM boat with the Shannon is not quite right - the Shannon cost also includes the launch tractor / trailer, which is a superb invention compared to the old beach recovery method used on the Merseys.

Even I don't get why the RNLI have resisted jets for so long though, or why they simply didn't go for the Visser class designed used for years in Holland by the KNRM.

Although the Shannon has one huge advantage - the new generation kit inside and the ability to ensure crew can remain seated for longer will cut down on in-cabin injuries.

And with a 25 year lifespan, it's not that expensive - plus, like many of their boats, once sold / donated out of service, they are likely to carry on lifesaving around the world for years afterwards.

The SNSM does have an age problem coming with a lot of its boats.

Two corrections are necessary:

Government contributions in Francs are 29% of the budget. Source : the SNSM site.

The £1500000 cost of the Shannon is only the boat. The launching carriage is an additional £1000000. Total cost to be effective : £ 2500000. Source : The RNLI site.

The French use either ribs or smaller boats in shallow waters. Eg http://www.snsm.org/flotte/vedette-legere.

Note the cost. € 100 000 !!

 

[Searush]

Some comments by chanelyacht made me think, should a perentage of the monies collected for lifeboat services by the RNLI be distributed to these organisations?
http://www.i-lifeboat.org.uk/links/independent-lifeboats

I would think that many people who donate would also like to support the many independant services who don't have the ability to collect with a National presence.

You never know where you or your loved ones might run into trouble on the sea and it could be in a region covered by an independant lifeboat.

Superficially, yes, but one has to ask why they are not part of the RNLI anyway? And would payments from the RNLI affect their independance? Possibly some of them would not like that.

But, in general, perhaps a simple matching funds transfer with no strings attached might work. Why not suggest the idea to the RNLI?

However, most local independants are well supported locally by the people who have most to benefit from them, anyway.

 

[chanelyacht]

Two corrections are necessary:

Government contributions in Francs are 29% of the budget. Source : the SNSM site.

The £1500000 cost of the Shannon is only the boat. The launching carriage is an additional £1000000. Total cost to be effective : £ 2500000. Source : The RNLI site.

The French use either ribs or smaller boats in shallow waters.

Not to do the same job though. The RNLI use ribs where appropriate - the Shannon is replacing the Mersey class, not the Atlantic.

You can't compare the two. A closer comparison would be the Dutch, who have pionered the jet drive for all weather boats.

 

[chanelyacht]

Superficially, yes, but one has to ask why they are not part of the RNLI anyway? And would payments from the RNLI affect their independance? Possibly some of them would not like that.

But, in general, perhaps a simple matching funds transfer with no strings attached might work. Why not suggest the idea to the RNLI?

However, most local independants are well supported locally by the people who have most to benefit from them, anyway.

Direct payments would not be legal under charity law anyway.

The Hamble boat, for example, is there because the RNLI refused to cover the area in the 60s.

Same goes for the Indies in the Bristol Channel, as the RNLI used to have a policy of not covering estuaries.

Others have been set up where the RNLI have withdrawn - e.g. the all weather independent boats at Caister and Blyth.

Not everyone thinks the RNLI way is the only way.

Many are well supported, but a lot find fundraising for larger projects, like new boathouses, a real struggle.

 

[Sybarite]

Pay no attention. Sybarite adopts a snooty toffee-nosed attitude to everything on here. It's his way of trying to appear "cultured" a sort of poor man's "Noel Coward"!

Run out of arguments have you. Pathetic.

 

[Sybarite]

And the replacement for the current half million boat will cost 1.5M according to their own website so they may need to up their funding level

The €1.5m is for a larger 56' all weather boat for which the nearest RNLI equivalent (in terms of size) is £ 2 million.

 

[maxi77]

Some comments by chanelyacht made me think, should a perentage of the monies collected for lifeboat services by the RNLI be distributed to these organisations?
http://www.i-lifeboat.org.uk/links/independent-lifeboats

I would think that many people who donate would also like to support the many independant services who don't have the ability to collect with a National presence.

You never know where you or your loved ones might run into trouble on the sea and it could be in a region covered by an independant lifeboat.

But would they really want to accent such funding which would tend to come with conditions, just as the RNLI avoids government support because they in the end would want to interfere and apply conditions in return for their money.

For example how could you merge the methods of the Glasgow Humane Society with the RNLI, the point about the independants is they are just that

 

[Searush]

(snip).

The £1500000 cost of the Shannon is only the boat. The launching carriage is an additional £1000000. Total cost to be effective : £ 2500000. Source : The RNLI site.

The French use either ribs or smaller boats in shallow waters.

But I pointed that out in my first post, so you clearly don't read posts opposed to your narrow view. How would you like a rib to arrive to help you if stuck on the Dogger bank (for example)?

Try launching a rib into a onshore F6 off a sandy or shingle beach. As I said earlier (but you clearly ignored) the Shannon (& its submersible lauch/recovery system) is a prototype designed for specific situations such as above. The Hoyle Bank in Liverpool bay is very exposed to NWly gales & the fastest way to reach it is by beach launch off a long flat beach directly into the gale. The Shannon would be ideal for that.

In a year or two the new Shannon will probably be a production boat being sold to the French rescue services & others. Where would you be without others to do your development & design for you? Oh, yeah, still using deep water trawler designs & ribs.

No, I appreciate the RNLI's work in rescue craft development & I am happy for my tiny shoreline contribution to support that.

 

[Sybarite]

Unfortunately, Sybrarites info was wrong on so many counts, if he had looked behind the headline figures, his 'largely comparable' comparisons were misleading.......and when I suggested this to him, I was slated by him and others.

Number of call outs, number of all weather vessels, size of coastline (huge difference between SNSM France & RNLI England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland).

I think he was doing it just to wind people up, looking at his other posts, I can't see many that are pro UK, even during the Olympics he appeared pro to any other country except England.

He comes across to me as a sort of modern day Lord Hawhaw. He chucked the bait and we fell for it hook, line and sinker!

My headline figures were to compare the cost of two similar sized boats. The composition of the fleet doesn't come into this.

" even during the Olympics he appeared pro to any other country except England"

Care to give an example?

 

[Searush]

My headline figures were to compare the cost of two similar sized boats. The composition of the fleet doesn't come into this.

(snip)

But that is sooo disingenuous, they may be similar lengths, but their purpose & capability are miles apart, as I suspect you very well know, but will not admit, as it completely undermines all your trolls.

A Volvo & an F1 car might be the same length, but they are built for different purposes under different budgets.

You are starting to look increasingly desperate to maintain your stance.

 

[King Penguin]

I have already stated that in terms of size the services are largely comparable.

Just to remind Lord Hawhaw of his selective memory again.

No of calls outs = huge difference
No of all weather vessels = huge difference
No of miles/kilometres of coastline covered = huge difference

Largely comparable services (not)

This is my last post on the issue........

 

[Sailfree]

Just to remind Lord Hawhaw of his selective memory again.

........

If you just let the facts speak for themselves they would have greater significance but by your first line you demean your own argument.

When have you ever seen name calling improve the pursuasivness of an arguement!

Searush & Chanelyacht make their points such that they are worthy of serious consideration.

Signed

Straw man!!

 

[Sybarite]

Just to remind Lord Hawhaw of his selective memory again.

No of calls outs = huge difference
No of all weather vessels = huge difference
No of miles/kilometres of coastline covered = huge difference

Largely comparable services (not)

This is my last post on the issue........

The figures that I stated did not include the personnes attended to by life guards on the beach as do the RNLI figures. If you include those you have an additional 21000 ie about 50% more than in the UK. Source : SnSm web site.

This supports the ball park notion I referred to.

When you are comparing two boats i do not see the relevance of the composition of the fleet. Each fleet has the type of boat necessary for its own local waters. The Shannon may be an excellent boat but as I said before, is it worth three times the amount of the French boat? The French surely have their means of dealing with shallow waters, even if it isn't the specific boat I mentionned. However it would appear that throughout the range the RNLI boats are more expensive.

 

[Sybarite]

Just to remind Lord Hawhaw of his selective memory again.

No of calls outs = huge difference
No of all weather vessels = huge difference
No of miles/kilometres of coastline covered = huge difference

Largely comparable services (not)

This is my last post on the issue........

The figures that I stated did not include the personnes attended to by life guards on the beach as do the RNLI figures. If you include those you have an additional 21000 ie about 50% more than in the UK. Source : SnSm web site.

This supports the ball park notion I referred to.

When you are comparing two boats i do not see the relevance of the composition of the fleet. Each fleet has the type of boat necessary for its own local waters. The Shannon may be an excellent boat but as I said before, is it worth three times the amount of the French boat? The French surely have their means of dealing with shallow waters, even if it isn't the specific boat I mentionned. However it would appear that throughout the range the RNLI boats are more expensive.


What about you justifying your Olympics jibe at me? It's very convenient isn't it to cop out before doing so.

 

[chanelyacht]

When you are comparing two boats i do not see the relevance of the composition of the fleet. Each fleet has the type of boat necessary for its own local waters. The Shannon may be an excellent boat but as I said before, is it worth three times the amount of the French boat? The French surely have their means of dealing with shallow waters, even if it isn't the specific boat I mentionned. However it would appear that throughout the range the RNLI boats are more expensive.

Pretty much, yes they are (having crewed on both sides of the Channel).

The SNSM don't have anything in the same league as Tamar / Shannon for control systems, crew comfort, and technology. The hull composites are different too.

Go on an SNSM rib, then an Atlantic 85 or Tiger Class, and you'll see a huge difference there too.

The Shannon launch / recovery system is something else too - nothing equivalent anywhere else in the world.

Are you also taking base production cost diferentials between the two countries into account?

 

[maxi77]

The figures that I stated did not include the personnes attended to by life guards on the beach as do the RNLI figures. If you include those you have an additional 21000 ie about 50% more than in the UK. Source : SnSm web site.

This supports the ball park notion I referred to.

When you are comparing two boats i do not see the relevance of the composition of the fleet. Each fleet has the type of boat necessary for its own local waters. The Shannon may be an excellent boat but as I said before, is it worth three times the amount of the French boat? The French surely have their means of dealing with shallow waters, even if it isn't the specific boat I mentionned. However it would appear that throughout the range the RNLI boats are more expensive.

One thing I certainly cannot find in the French organisation is a carriage launched boat, so how do they deal with tidal situations where there is not enough water depth between where the boat is stored to the open sea.

We do really need to compare apples with apples, at the moment you seem to be compairing grapes with apples. Precisely which boat in the French fleet are you comparing with the RNLI's new carriage launch vessel.

You opened the argument lets really see your facts

 

[Searush]

Why bother, we haven't seen anything but repetition of the same old mis-information throughout the whole thread.