If I were an RNLI donor I would not be happy.

[Sybarite]

Yes, I did mean 25knot.

It is not the boats that have a different capabilty, it's the services - the RNLI can reach an incident at any point up to 50nm off the coast within 2 hours . The French boats can do the same from each station, but if you draw a 2 hour circle around each UK lifeboat station, there won't be any gaps. Do the same in France, especially taking into account tidal launch windows, and there will be huge gaps.

The services are not doing the same thing.

Don't forget the RNLI's commitment includes the Republic of Ireland, Isle of Man and Channel Islands too.

I understand this principle but one needs to understand the distribution of the boating population in France. There are centres of high activity and then there are miles and miles of coast with no harbours and no shelters. eg the Somme, or south of Arcachon. Boating is very sparse in these areas and it obviously wouldn't work to have a beach capable AWB stationed there. If a shout were required here I would suggest that it would either be a RIB or a helicopter in the first instance.

So you may not be able to join the 50m radii completely but I'm sure 99.9% of the boating population would be in reach of an AWB within 2 hours. However I am open to correction on this point.

The French commitment also covers the DOMTOM.

 

[Sybarite]

Yes, I agree we've missed the chance to come up with a single national air service, along the lines of France's Securite Civil (shutup Sybarite, I know the French do that better ) but I don't agree we'll end up with a one size fits all - only the military do that at present, the CG operate different aircraft in southern England to those in Northern Scotland.

But then the UK missed the chance to look at a single national maritime policy, or in so many other areas of policy.

I'll miss seeing the SeaKings, but I still think we'll end up with a better service.

I didn't say a word. But now that you raise the point.....

 

[chanelyacht]

I didn't say a word. But now that you raise the point.....

 

[chanelyacht]

So you may not be able to join the 50m radii completely but I'm sure 99.9% of the boating population would be in reach of an AWB within 2 hours. However I am open to correction on this point.

The French commitment also covers the DOMTOM.

I think you slip into the easy trap of thinking the RNLI's commitment is with regard to boating casualties - it isn't.

It is a search and rescue commitment as part of the UK SRR (search and rescue region)'s capability - so it doesn't matter where the casualty comes from - could be maritime or aviation related.

Helicopters are part of that commitment, but they aren't as reliable or available.

 

[Sybarite]

I think you slip into the easy trap of thinking the RNLI's commitment is with regard to boating casualties - it isn't.

It is a search and rescue commitment as part of the UK SRR (search and rescue region)'s capability - so it doesn't matter where the casualty comes from - could be maritime or aviation related.

Helicopters are part of that commitment, but they aren't as reliable or available.

I have come upon an SNSM press file which addresses a lot of the information I wasn't able to glean earlier.

It gives numbers and details of boats and their distribution around the coast as well as in the DOMTOM (overseas departments and territories). It also confirms that they too provide an SAR function.

http://www.google.fr/url?sa=t&rct=j...GAhRcnf8VMxzNKVvA&sig2=cJdvvboeARwF-m8jN4xgYA

 

[Sybarite]

Yes, I did mean 25knot.

It is not the boats that have a different capabilty, it's the services - the RNLI can reach an incident at any point up to 50nm off the coast within 2 hours . The French boats can do the same from each station, but if you draw a 2 hour circle around each UK lifeboat station, there won't be any gaps. Do the same in France, especially taking into account tidal launch windows, and there will be huge gaps.

.

Based on the map which shows where the French AWB's are stationned (as shown in the SNSM press report: post # 745 ) at no time are you more than approximately 35nm from an AWB and (from what I can see) none of these boats is tide constrained. This is with regards to the Channel and Atlantic coasts; the Med stations look even closer together. There are only 7 gaps where the distance from an AWB exceeds 20 miles; most are in the 10 to 20 mile range. Between these CTT's you have the whole bevy of SNSM fast launches.

The largest gap is south of the Gironde where there is a low density of boats, especially as it was out-of-bounds to the former French category 3 boats and above : ie not allowed more than 20nm from a haven.

I have to conclude therefore that the French boats can potentially get to a casualty practically as quickly as an RNLI boat. It's true that the older CTTs were limited to 22 knts but they are to be replaced by the new 56' CTT which operates at 25 knts (with a range of 360 nm). The nearest size equivalent to this is the Tamar which costs 70% more and needs 2500hp to achieve the same operating speed as the French boat with 1300hp.

 

[TimBennet]

I've had a good look at that map and it's not easy to make everything out. But it's certainly nothing like one all weather lifeboat per 35 miles. The SNSM website says they have 40 all weather boats with a comparable capability to RNLI all weather boats, ie no operation limits for their deployment.

(You can't consider the SNSM Class 1 and 2 boats 'all weather' as they have operational limits of Force 8 and Force 7 respectively. In this respect they're more like the RNLI's B-class boats).

As France has somewhere in excess of 4500km of coastline (as much as 7700km in some sources, then the coverage of all weather boats is more like one every 112kms (70 miles).

Comparing speeds also needs more care. Top speed is nothing - lots of Sunseekers etc can do 25knts, but the key is it's operational speed into a headwind of F6. Here the slamming loads are enormous and building hull structures and systems robust enough to maintain 17 to 20 knts is neither light nor cheap.

Finally endurance is another factor that dictates loads and hence engine size; RNLI boats are required to maintain full power for 11 hours with 10 percent reserves. That's a lot of fuel weight to be pushed through the water particularly at the start of a trip. Lower the mission requirements and you quickly make things easier; less fuel load means you can use smaller engines, which means you need less fuel, so loads are lower, so you can use smaller power etc. But if the requirement to provide the required operational capability is 11 hours, then that's what the boats have to do.

I don't know the detailed operations specs of the SMSN all weather boats, but unless they have similar range, endurance, heavy weather speed, etc, cherry picking simple comparisons about top speed, cost and engine size are meaningless.

 

[Sybarite]

I've had a good look at that map and it's not easy to make everything out. But it's certainly nothing like one all weather lifeboat per 35 miles. The SNSM website says they have 40 all weather boats with a comparable capability to RNLI all weather boats, ie no operation limits for their deployment. .

I like to be able to stand over the figures I give. Therefore if the map is not clear enough (I magnified the image) here is the list of the 41 AWBs (one held in reserve) and where they are based:

http://sauvmer.free.fr/vedette/sns0.html


I marked their position on Google earth and calculated the sea distance between the bases. The greatest distance was about 70 nm south of the Gironde. If you are half way between the two stations then you are at most 35 miles from one or the other. And these are only the AWBs.

(You can't consider the SNSM Class 1 and 2 boats 'all weather' as they have operational limits of Force 8 and Force 7 respectively. In this respect they're more like the RNLI's B-class boats). .

I haven't included them. However a 46' boat which is both self-righting and unsinkable might well be called an AWB - "mais on peut pas être plus royalist que le roi.."

As France has somewhere in excess of 4500km of coastline (as much as 7700km in some sources, then the coverage of all weather boats is more like one every 112kms (70 miles).
.

Here are the approximate sea distances in nm between stations (starting at Dunkirk going westwards: 22, 22, 53, 35, 40, 45, 35, 54, 20, 60, 15, 30,(AberWrac'h) 10, 20, 10, 25, 15, 15, 15, 55 (Belle Isle), 30, 25, 20, 30, 35, (La Rochelle) 30, 30, 70, 70, 30 (Bayonne). Without measuring them, looking at the map the intervals are similar for the Med.

Comparing speeds also needs more care. Top speed is nothing - lots of Sunseekers etc can do 25knts, but the key is it's operational speed into a headwind of F6. Here the slamming loads are enormous and building hull structures and systems robust enough to maintain 17 to 20 knts is neither light nor cheap.

Finally endurance is another factor that dictates loads and hence engine size; RNLI boats are required to maintain full power for 11 hours with 10 percent reserves. That's a lot of fuel weight to be pushed through the water particularly at the start of a trip. Lower the mission requirements and you quickly make things easier; less fuel load means you can use smaller engines, which means you need less fuel, so loads are lower, so you can use smaller power etc. But if the requirement to provide the required operational capability is 11 hours, then that's what the boats have to do. .

The new 17m80 CTT (AWB) is designed to operate at 25knts as is the Tamar which has twice the hp. The Tamar has a range of 250nm; the CTT (at 18knts) - 360nm. Both are designed for - all weather.

I don't know the detailed operations specs of the SMSN all weather boats, but unless they have similar range, endurance, heavy weather speed, etc, cherry picking simple comparisons about top speed, cost and engine size are meaningless.

I have posted videos showing their build and capability (admittedly some were of pilot boats sharing the same design.) They move beautifully through the water.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

...and still it goes on.......and on...... and on


......and I still think that the RNLI does a bloody good job.

 

[BlueSkyNick]

...and still it goes on.......and on...... and on


......and I still think that the RNLI does a bloody good job.

And several pages ago I recall Sybarite saying he was going to drop out of the thread, except to defend himself against personal remarks.

 

[Sybarite]

And several pages ago I recall Sybarite saying he was going to drop out of the thread, except to defend himself against personal remarks.

Yes that's true but when I see an expert posting information which I know is wrong I am compelled to respond.

What about discussing the facts instead of me? I am posting information which is up there for people to criticize and if I'm wrong tell me. But don't just tell me I'm wrong because somebody else says it.

 

[NorthUp]

The new 17m80 CTT (AWB) is designed to operate at 25knts as is the Tamar which has twice the hp. The Tamar has a range of 250nm; the CTT (at 18knts) - 360nm. Both are designed for - all weather.



.

Would you care to quote the range of the CTT boat at 25 knots?
Otherwise the comparison is meaningless, as any planing boat going from 18 to 25 knots will burn much more fuel, regardless of weight, hull form or nationality.



correction- not planing, but semi-displacement hulls. The point I make is still valid.

 

[Donheist]

I haven't read every post so apologies if this point has been made already, but it strikes me that there are many situations where a marginal increase in performance means a significantly higher cost. Hi-fi equipment, football players, military equipment, medicines, to name a few. If the benefit is important enough to the purchaser and they have the money then what's the problem? Strikes me that the lives of crew and those needing rescue is as good a reason as any to spend the money.

As for collaborating with e.g. French to make savings, I'm sure that would be a good idea for some items, but it woul inevitably lead to compromises, and, again, if they have the money, why not have a bespoke lifeboat?

I am pretty money conscious, but this is not a direct debit I am looking to save money on.

 

[Sybarite]

Would you care to quote the range of the CTT boat at 25 knots?
Otherwise the comparison is meaningless, as any planing boat going from 18 to 25 knots will burn much more fuel, regardless of weight, hull form or nationality.

I don't have this information. However I would suggest that 1300hp will burn less fuel than 2500hp.

Here are some independent appreciations of the Pantocarene hulled boats which are the basis for the new life boats, notably the 17m80 (56') AWB and for the 14m and 16m Vedettes Class1, which incidentally are also described as all weather boats on the builder's site.

"These new hull lines showing a strange bow have been developed since 1994 by PANTOCARENE Naval Architects (Brittany) for the purpose of improving the seakeeping and the speed of planing and semi-planing hulls in rough seas. In short, the aim was to behave at least as well as the best round hulls in head seas and as well as the best hard chine hulls in following seas.

Combined with unusual hull parameters and trim tables, the BEAK, working as an hydrodynamic damper, has today proven through different fast craft ( pilot, rescue, passenger and fishing, ranging from 12 to 22m in length and from 20 to 35 knots in speed) its clear superiority in waves relative to any other conventional fast hull (round, single or double chine)."


"The ORC Fast Launches have been developed on a new hull concept patented by Pantocarene, Naval Architects. This concept of hull, chosen by the SNSM as well as the leading pilot stations (St Nazaire, Bordeaux, Le Havre, Dunkirk,) is on the way to rewriting the rules regarding fast hulls in rough seas:

• exceptional comfort in rough seas with vertical acceleration and very reduced impact on landing;
• a speed of more than 20knts in 13 to 15 foot waves and in F9 winds;
• excellent high speed tracking in high waves both in front and from behind; the aptitude to sail flat with a minimal resistance;
• a high degree of precision in the manoeuvrability."

I would describe these boats as semi-planing rather than planing.

A similar discussion has already taken place on a French forum:

http://www.hisse-et-oh.com/forums/n...t-la-mission-de-base-de-la-snsm#reply_1082119

Here are some clips of the boats in action :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&v=aIl0ElaI7vs&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE9Df9b-MPg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPeu7hjB0XA&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX5kFgHiOL0&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9EKEY3P1kg&feature=related


It would be interesting to have an idea of the number of boats that the respective services have to watch over. There are nearly a million boats registered in France of which some 312000 are more than 20' long. Are there any statistics for the RNLI patch?

The French photographer, Philippe Plisson, has offered a superb pictorial tribute to the SNSM.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Td4r-41Mlq4&feature=related

"They give you a hand at sea; give them a hand on land."


And, just for something different:

The Norwegian boats look impressive too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgRXStlofHo&feature=related