If I were an RNLI donor I would not be happy.

[glashen]

i agree with you that a management expenditure of £3.7 million as a percentage of the total budget isnt an excessive amount,a little over 6%.

on the other hand, a cursory look at the figures will tell you that the £3.7 million is merely the amount skimmed off by 42 managers.
there is a culture in this country of people using charitable organisations as means of earning extortionate salaries and justifying it by claiming that they bring a greater net value. i, for one, happen to find that nonsense quite unsavoury especially as many charities raise very significant amounts whilst claiming no rewards whatsoever.
the arguement that one needs to spend huge amounts of money to attract thr best has been well and truly debunked over recent years, yet, it seems, that many of contributors here remain convinced that this misnomer still holds true.

Where does 6% come from, the RNLI spent 172.4M on capital and expenditure in 2011. 3.7M is 2.14 percent according to my calculator.

I love your phrase "skimmed off" but if you note I said managing (not administering) the total budget which is presumably what the managers are employed to do.

We come back to my essential point that you seem to object to the fact that the RNLI are very successful fund raisers and I for one do not think the salaries are huge compared to what they could earn elsewhere. I personally think there are levels, say over £250,000 where it is hard to see the amount making much difference to the quality of applicant, different industries etc., will have different scales where it ceases to be about standard of living and becomes an ego trip for the management, anyone mention the BBC or bankers. I don't think for a moment the RNLI salaries are in that category.

 

[testmonkey]

in a faraway foreign country the navy run sea trials for their then-new jet drive medium size patrol craft. The sea trials included shallow water runs on a river. What was found out that the high power jet drives sucked huge amounts of sand and mud resulting in sand blasting the internals of the jet drives and only after a few days the drives were in condition to be replaced. Operational guidelines were updated and use of jet drives in shallow waters were banned for all other than emergency situations. Food for thought wrt beach launching jet drive lifeboats?

 

[Chrusty 1]

No I don't understand it either, but it a very common POV in many walks of life.

Looking at the title of this thread and reading much of it, the answer seems to be that most of the RNLI donors are happy enough to keep on giving, the RNLI is not beyond criticism, but much of the criticism being leveled at it seems to be that it is too rich and too good at raising money, which they then have the cheek to spend on the best equipment.

BTW £3.7m managing expenditure of £171 seems about right to me!

Well I suspect that the current management of the RNLI know a bloody sight more than me about how the RNLI should be run. I also suspect that they know a bloody sight more than all the critics on this forum added together.

The proof is in the puddin' my dears, the RNLI is simply the best at what they do, end of.

Rescue organisations the world over look to the RNLI as a bench mark in the saving lives at sea business, that wasn't achieved by getting in the bean counters and operating down to the lowest common denominator.

I have a very deep mistrust of all these critics, and one in particular has plummeted to the bottom of my respect chart. Still I feel that the little poll that is running alongside this thread is far more eloquent than me!

 

[viago]

Where does 6% come from, the RNLI spent 172.4M on capital and expenditure in 2011. 3.7M is 2.14 percent according to my calculator.

I love your phrase "skimmed off" but if you note I said managing (not administering) the total budget which is presumably what the managers are employed to do.

We come back to my essential point that you seem to object to the fact that the RNLI are very successful fund raisers and I for one do not think the salaries are huge compared to what they could earn elsewhere. I personally think there are levels, say over £250,000 where it is hard to see the amount making much difference to the quality of applicant, different industries etc., will have different scales where it ceases to be about standard of living and becomes an ego trip for the management, anyone mention the BBC or bankers. I don't think for a moment the RNLI salaries are in that category.

please note that i realised my errors and corrected them prior to your post but thank you for pointing me in the right direction

 

[chanelyacht]

in a faraway foreign country the navy run sea trials for their then-new jet drive medium size patrol craft. The sea trials included shallow water runs on a river. What was found out that the high power jet drives sucked huge amounts of sand and mud resulting in sand blasting the internals of the jet drives and only after a few days the drives were in condition to be replaced. Operational guidelines were updated and use of jet drives in shallow waters were banned for all other than emergency situations. Food for thought wrt beach launching jet drive lifeboats?

No.

Hasn't been a problem for decades in Holland, or for that matter, for years at Hamble / Gosport / Solent Rescue.

There is a world of different between craft at sea all the time, and lifeboats spending the vast majority of their life out of the water with one of the best maintenance regimes imaginable.

 

[Boat44]

The RNLI boat will be more expensive as it is custom design for the RNLI; whereas the french boat is a commercial hullform designed by Pantocarene and is sold for a variety of purposes.

They can therefore spread the cost of the development/design over a larger number (and any licensing will include a profit for the designer!)

The RNLI do over engineer their boats and for good reason. This off course does also cost more.

That said, the design process the RNLI went through was “interesting” and certainly why I begrudge donating too them. Although how do you distinguish between their “management” and the kit, training, support and volunteers?

Impossible, so I carry on giving to them!

At the end of the day they provide an awesome service!!

 

[bbg]

Looking at the title of this thread and reading much of it, the answer seems to be that most of the RNLI donors are happy enough to keep on giving, the RNLI is not beyond criticism, but much of the criticism being leveled at it seems to be that it is too rich and too good at raising money, which they then have the cheek to spend on the best equipment.

I think that is the nub of it. Some people on here DO seem to think the RNLI is beyond criticism. The thinking seems to be that they provide an excellent service, therefore should not be criticised in any way. That is just not logical. If they were able to provide the same service at lower cost, and maintained the same income, that would let them provide even better service at the same cost. Win-win.

Looking at this from afar, I am surprised to hear that the RNLI has its own in-house design team, and is considering bringing construction in-house. For an organisation that designs a boat every - what, decade? - is that reasonable? Is it sensible? If there are people who can design good RNLI boats (and there must be, if they are being designed), there is no reason for me to think that they wouldn't get just as good a design if they outsourced that work to a specialist naval architect firm.

If Sybarite is right, that SNSM sources similar boats at a third of the cost, that should be a reason to ask further questions. Maybe there is a real justification for that extra cost. But if there isn't, I don't see why the RNLI shouldn't be questioned / criticised.

My take away from this thread:
1. the RNLI provides an excellent service. This seems to be unanimous. Possibly even the best service of its kind in the world.
2. some people think that point no.1 makes (or should make) the RNLI immune from any and all criticism
3. some people don't think so

 

[Litotes]

The SNSM don't have anything in the same league as Tamar / Shannon for control systems, crew comfort, and technology. The hull composites are different too.

Go on an SNSM rib, then an Atlantic 85 or Tiger Class, and you'll see a huge difference there too.

The Shannon launch / recovery system is something else too - nothing equivalent anywhere else in the world.

I generally try not to use anecdotes to "prove" a point. Or to use things like glimpses of videos as evidence of boat performance in heavy seas. But this certainly tallies with the opinions expressed by some SMSN crews in Britanny. My French cousin had a problem on the English side of La Manche while sailing in his old Hillyard and was towed in by an RNLI boat. He was chatting to some French crew members he knows in his (Breton) home port about it and they expressed both praise and some envy for the excellent boats and equipment available on the other side, as compared with their own. Having sailed for many years on the Breton and Biscay coasts, however, one thing of which I have no doubt is the seamanship, skill and courage of the SNSM crews.

The thread has moved on a lot since I last visited it, but there are a couple of points from some pages back. The practice of amortising is, of course, an accounting technique that has very little to do with the actual life expectancy of the subject, especially in a fast moving technical field.

As far as the significance of the volunteering spirit is concerned, I have no knowledge of the management of the SNSM. But I do know that the idea of managing an organisation of the size and scope of the RNLI purely by voluntary effort would be ridiculous. I also wonder whether Sybarite (an Irish resident of France, I believe?) knows how widespread throughout the UK is the army of people, many of whom have no connection with the sea and live far inland, who make up the network of volunteers.

I would just like to add my protest about the accusation of knee-jerk, close minded chauvinism. (A French word, of course..... ) The thread's title and the way in which the initial premise is set out are both deliberately provocative. This was framed as a challenge, based on a dubious assumption, and not an invitation to debate. What else else is/was the OP trying to do than to tell us that "French is best"?

 

[chanelyacht]

I generally try not to use anecdotes to "prove" a point. Or to use things like glimpses of videos as evidence of boat performance in heavy seas. But this certainly tallies with the opinions expressed by some SMSN crews in Britanny. My French cousin had a problem on the English side of La Manche while sailing in his old Hillyard and was towed in by an RNLI boat. He was chatting to some French crew members he knows in his (Breton) home port about it and they expressed both praise and some envy for the excellent boats and equipment available on the other side, as compared with their own. Having sailed for many years on the Breton and Biscay coasts, however, one thing of which I have no doubt is the seamanship, skill and courage of the SNSM crews.

Being in the (probably) unique position on here of having crewed on both sides of the Channel, the newer RNLI boats are, rightly, looked at wistfully by some of the French crews.

The French boats are (mainly) good, but they're not in the same league - although some of the bigger all weather boats are excellent workhorses.

 

[Litotes]

2. some people think that point no.1 makes (or should make) the RNLI immune from any and all criticism

I can see no evidence in this thread to support this assertion.

I do see some people arguing, legitimately, against the propositions put forward (in a deliberately provocative challenge) by the OP and one or two others and some people choosing not to comment on matters of which they have no knowledge.

When it comes to internet debates, it seems to me to be better not to attribute attitudes to other people that they have not, themselves, expressed, or to assume that "I think this is good, excellent, great, wonderful" is the same thing as "I think this is better than everything else of its kind". Both are fallacies.

 

[Litotes]

Being in the (probably) unique position on here of having crewed on both sides of the Channel,

You have lead a very interesting nautical life, it seems.

 

[reginaldon]

I can see no evidence in this thread to support this assertion.

I do see some people arguing, legitimately, against the propositions put forward (in a deliberately provocative challenge) by the OP and one or two others and some people choosing not to comment on matters of which they have no knowledge.

When it comes to internet debates, it seems to me to be better not to attribute attitudes to other people that they have not, themselves, expressed, or to assume that "I think this is good, excellent, great, wonderful" is the same thing as "I think this is better than everything else of its kind". Both are fallacies.

How you can read this into Sybarite's O P I fail to see. This thread seems to run and run because some feel the RNLI is so superb that it should be immune to the mere suggestion that there are areas where savings could be made rather than seeing how many ways the can dissipate their immense wealth - incidentally, illogically I am an offshore member.

NB I have served as a trustee of a charity providing masses of aid to specific areas in Africa, where the distribution of that aid is closely monitored - absolutely no member or worker in the charity received ANY remuneration.

 

[glashen]

How you can read this into Sybarite's O P I fail to see. This thread seems to run and run because some feel the RNLI is so superb that it should be immune to the mere suggestion that there are areas where savings could be made rather than seeing how many ways the can dissipate their immense wealth - incidentally, illogically I am an offshore member.

The problem is that you and others seem to be asserting that they could make a far better job of running the RNLI than those in charge at present, that's fair enough for you to believe I suppose, but those of us who disagree have no way to disprove this assertion except to point to the RNLIs worldwide reputation and their record. That lays us open to the claim we think that the RNLI is beyond reproach, which I far one do not but much of the criticism doesn't from my POV hold water.

 

[Searush]

How you can read this into Sybarite's O P I fail to see. This thread seems to run and run because some feel the RNLI is so superb that it should be immune to the mere suggestion that there are areas where savings could be made rather than seeing how many ways the can dissipate their immense wealth - incidentally, illogically I am an offshore member.

You must be reading a different thread then.

I have seen no-one arguing that the RNLI is above criticism, except where the critics themselves have attributed that mindset to those of us who have tried to correct the critics' misunderstandings & misrepresentation of the situation.

In short, we may very well welcome constructive & accurate criticism, but we haven't seen much of that on this thread and we do strongly object to deliberate mis-information and people ignoring what they have already been told.

I am yet to see a sensible argument that the RNLI is less than fit for purpose, or even an excellent example of an organisation of its type. It has been shown to meet at least market standards in all the areas criticised so far. The nearest to a genuine complaint so far is that they are too successful!

 

[bbg]

I can see no evidence in this thread to support this assertion. [NB - the assertion that some people think the RNLI is, or should be, immune from criticism]

Here is one example

There are very few organisations which I feel should be unaccountable, but the RNLI is one of them.

And another

So is your continual criticism of the RNLI!

From what I can see from your arguments, you seem to be one of the "stack 'em high and sell 'em cheap" merchants!

I really think that you would do well to keep your opinions to yourself on this one.

There are others. From what I see, Sybarite raised a legitimate observation. Some say he did so in a provocative way, but I don't really see that.

Maybe there are legitimate reasons that the RNLI's new boats are three times the cost of SNSM's. Maybe there aren't. But if you don't ask the question, you will never know the answer.

What I HAVE seen is some people seem to be outraged that anyone has dared question the RNLI.

 

[Litotes]

This thread seems to run and run because some feel the RNLI is so superb that it should be immune to the mere suggestion that there are areas where savings could be made rather than seeing how many ways the can dissipate their immense wealth - incidentally, illogically I am an offshore member.

And I fail to see how you can....... oh, never mind!

I too am a charity Trustee and have also worked for a large national charity. I now spend a good deal of my time as a volunteer in two organisations, one of which has to do with sailing and the other, something entirely different. No pay for any of this, and I never claim expenses.

If you believe that the RNLI, with its wide range of activities and presence throughout the UK and Ireland, could be run entirely on unpaid voluntary work, performed by people who have the time and expertise to take it on, I can only suggest that you use the benefit of your experience and set out a plan to show how this can be achieved. I shall be interested to see it.

 

[Chrusty 1]

Here is one example



And another



There are others. From what I see, Sybarite raised a legitimate observation. Some say he did so in a provocative way, but I don't really see that.

Maybe there are legitimate reasons that the RNLI's new boats are three times the cost of SNSM's. Maybe there aren't. But if you don't ask the question, you will never know the answer.

What I HAVE seen is some people seem to be outraged that anyone has dared question the RNLI.

Question by all means, but some have decided that slagging off is more fun.

I don't think I have ever used this word about somebody on here before, but I have come to the conclusion that the OP is is a total TROLL.

If anyone of you think you can do a better job of running the RNLI, I suggest that you put your names forward, I am sure they will be received with great interest.

 

[jordanbasset]

Am sure the RNLI could do things better, very few organisations are perfect. But it is pretty good. I do think a more justified target would be the French life boat service fund raising department. How on earth do they only manage to raise around 13 million from a country similar in population to the U.K. They have to rely on Government subsides of around 29% and have to charge to rescue boats.
I do not believe the French people are reluctant to give to worthy causes so is it that their fundraising department is just not up to the job.I make no criticisms of the volunteer crews, in fact they get my up most respect in having to make do with less than state of the art equipment because of funding problems.
Perhaps they should visit the RNLI and find out how they get it so right in raising such large sums of money, maybe they do need to look at the calibre of their fund raising staff.
I do hope no one will suggest the French lifeboat organisation is beyond criticism and cannot be improved

 

[maxi77]

There are others. From what I see, Sybarite raised a legitimate observation. Some say he did so in a provocative way, but I don't really see that.

I am yet to be convinced that Sybarites observations are legitimate. He has failed on several occasions to clarify his assertions which all to often do seem to be failing to compare apples with apples. (and that is not supposed to be a reflection on French apples) If we want to have an objective discussion we need to do it on the basis of the reality. Sybarite fails to do this, he cannot even identify which french boat costs a third of the RNLI one, I suspect it actually costs a bit more than the third less and that is also an older boat, the latest French all weather boat will cost almost as much as the RNLI boat and is not suitable for carriage lanch. If we want to improve thing we do have to get our facts right first

 

[bbg]

I am yet to be convinced that Sybarites observations are legitimate. He has failed on several occasions to clarify his assertions which all to often do seem to be failing to compare apples with apples. (and that is not supposed to be a reflection on French apples) If we want to have an objective discussion we need to do it on the basis of the reality. Sybarite fails to do this, he cannot even identify which french boat costs a third of the RNLI one, I suspect it actually costs a bit more than the third less and that is also an older boat, the latest French all weather boat will cost almost as much as the RNLI boat and is not suitable for carriage lanch. If we want to improve thing we do have to get our facts right first

He did set out his stall pretty clearly in his first post. You might disagree with the comparison (which is a legitimate approach to debating his position), but he's not trolling as Chrusty1 says. Indeed, Sybarite proposes something that could benefit BOTH organisations: getting together to design boats.

Now, it might be that if they tried that exercise, they found that they had different requirements. But fighter planes are designed for several countries at a time - why not life boats?