If I were an RNLI donor I would not be happy.

[Searush]

He did set out his stall pretty clearly in his first post. You might disagree with the comparison (which is a legitimate approach to debating his position), but he's not trolling as Chrusty1 says. Indeed, Sybarite proposes something that could benefit BOTH organisations: getting together to design boats.

Now, it might be that if they tried that exercise, they found that they had different requirements. But fighter planes are designed for several countries at a time - why not life boats?

Sadly, I do not think the French have the resources to put into prototype development & design, which is probably why they stick to production derived alternatives. However, the Shannon will no doubt be available for sale to other rescue organisations, assuming it meets their needs & their budget is adequate. Many former designs have been widely sold overseas, as are many retired from service boats.

I am not convinced that a new "Concorde" lifeboat would be any more commercial than its supersonic predecessor.

 

[maxi77]

He did set out his stall pretty clearly in his first post. You might disagree with the comparison (which is a legitimate approach to debating his position), but he's not trolling as Chrusty1 says. Indeed, Sybarite proposes something that could benefit BOTH organisations: getting together to design boats.

Now, it might be that if they tried that exercise, they found that they had different requirements. But fighter planes are designed for several countries at a time - why not life boats?

No he didn't set out his stall clearly, I cannot identify his mythical SNSM boat from their website, he refuses to identify it. He does not respond to requests to clarify if his comparism is apples for apples so to me and it seems others that is the actions of a troll.

 

[Firefly625]

Am sure the RNLI could do things better, very few organisations are perfect. But it is pretty good. I do think a more justified target would be the French life boat service fund raising department. How on earth do they only manage to raise around 13 million from a country similar in population to the U.K. They have to rely on Government subsides of around 29% and have to charge to rescue boats.
I do not believe the French people are reluctant to give to worthy causes so is it that their fundraising department is just not up to the job.I make no criticisms of the volunteer crews, in fact they get my up most respect in having to make do with less than state of the art equipment because of funding problems.
Perhaps they should visit the RNLI and find out how they get it so right in raising such large sums of money, maybe they do need to look at the calibre of their fund raising staff.
I do hope no one will suggest the French lifeboat organisation is beyond criticism and cannot be improved

The fact is as soon as a charity in France or the UK accepts funding from a government they have to justify every cost and at times like these would have to make cuts as funding would be greatly reduced.... So when we see Coast guard stations closing and we are all up in arms about it just thank our lucky stars that the RNLI is NOT part funded by the government and are NOT having to close or amalgamate some of their stations to cuts costs.

 

[chanelyacht]

You have lead a very interesting nautical life, it seems.

It's quietened down a lot now

Half my family are French, and I grew up (mainly) in southwest Brittany, hence the connections.

 

[chanelyacht]

The fact is as soon as a charity accepts funding from a government they have to justify every cost and at times like these would have to make cuts as funding would be greatly reduced.... So when we see Coast guard stations closing and we are all up in arms about it just thank our lucky stars that the RNLI is NOT part funded by the government and are NOT having to close or amalgamate some of their stations to cuts costs.

They will be.

One of the consequences of going to an all 25 knot fleet is that a number of stations will close or switch to inshore boats - Calshot and Poole are already going down that route.

It will in time lead to reduced estate and boat costs.

 

[bbg]

No he didn't set out his stall clearly, I cannot identify his mythical SNSM boat from their website, he refuses to identify it. He does not respond to requests to clarify if his comparism is apples for apples so to me and it seems others that is the actions of a troll.

Vedette Classe 1 (VC1)

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichie...nt_parAudierne_et_Loctudy_P1050878.JPG_-1.JPG

From post #1 in this thread. I think the "mythical SNSM boat" might, just possibly, be a Vedette Classe 1 (VC1). If you click on the link you might even be treated to a photo of this mythical boat.

What is trolling about that?

 

[Firefly625]

They will be.

One of the consequences of going to an all 25 knot fleet is that a number of stations will close or switch to inshore boats - Calshot and Poole are already going down that route.

It will in time lead to reduced estate and boat costs.

OK, fair comment, although the decision is not forced upon them by government, but by advancements in their craft design and their ability to cover more ground at speed....

 

[chanelyacht]

OK, fair comment, although the decision is not forced upon them by government, but by advancements in their craft design and their ability to cover more ground at speed....

Yep, that's true.

As a huge piece of thread drift, the CG changes aren't about money saving really, the project will cost a fair bit in the short term, and the plan was around prior to the change in government. A wholesale change has been needed in the way we work for a long time - it's simply not right (or effective) to have, say, 17 stations manned with 5 people each doing not a lot at night, whilst the 18th station has a major job going on and everyone is run ragged.

There are some merits to the new scheme

 

[chanelyacht]

From post #1 in this thread. I think the "mythical SNSM boat" might, just possibly, be a Vedette Classe 1 (VC1). If you click on the link you might even be treated to a photo of this mythical boat.

What is trolling about that?

Aw, sweet, one of the little boats

Here's ours...

http://snsm-baie-audierne.wifeo.com/moyens.php

 

[Firefly625]

Yep, that's true.

As a huge piece of thread drift, the CG changes aren't about money saving really, the project will cost a fair bit in the short term, and the plan was around prior to the change in government. A wholesale change has been needed in the way we work for a long time - it's simply not right (or effective) to have, say, 17 stations manned with 5 people each doing not a lot at night, whilst the 18th station has a major job going on and everyone is run ragged.

There are some merits to the new scheme

yup, thread drift but glade to hear your opinion.

 

[spynappels]

Late to the party as usual, but I donate, I don't think the RNLI are perfect, but on balance I think they do a very good job of both the actual rescue work as well as the other aspects of their remit, be it fund-raising, estates and other management, vessel R&D or education.

If I lived and worked closer to a station I would be one of the volunteers, and I'd refuse any money, but I'd be damned glad there were some who were getting paid enough to ensure my kit and training were of the highest standard available.

Sure, it could be done more cheaply, but if my life was on the line, I'd not begrudge the extra spend. And I mean that from both a volunteer point of view as well as the point of view of possibly needing their services some day.

 

[Sailfree]

What I HAVE seen is some people seem to be outraged that anyone has dared question the RNLI.

+1

 

[maxi77]

From post #1 in this thread. I think the "mythical SNSM boat" might, just possibly, be a Vedette Classe 1 (VC1). If you click on the link you might even be treated to a photo of this mythical boat.

What is trolling about that?

But that boat does not cost 500000

http://www.snsm.org/flotte/vedette-v1

Note he didn't use the link I have provided

Also it is not described a all weather by the French, their new all weather boat which may be a better comparison cost just a trfle more than 500000

http://www.snsm.org/flotte/le-futur-canot-tous-temps

Now you may just see my concern on not starting with an apples for apples comparison. I have given chances for him to comment on this but clearly he has not as it sort of negates some of his argument

Closer to trolling than fair comment in my books

 

[Sybarite]

Aw, sweet, one of the little boats

Here's ours...

http://snsm-baie-audierne.wifeo.com/moyens.php

I chose the VC1 because it was the closest in size (slightly bigger) than the Shannon.

I have listened to clips by the admiral (retired) who is the volunteer president of the SNSM who has spoken about how carefully they have to manage costs in their service. They do however have a very full programme of renewing and upgrading their fleet where they will have state of the art technology. For example their new large (56') all weather state of the art boat which is coming into service about the same time as the Shannon (45') is budgeted at € 1 500 000 whereas the same size of RNLI boat is £ 2 000 000. Both are propellor drive deep water boats so the essential difference in technical requirements would not appear enter into the question.

My financial instinct also tells me that I agree with BBG that it is reinventing the wheel to bring design and manufacture in-house. In the industrial groups where I had financial responsibilty, the opposite was the trend. You subcontract to specialist organisations these responsibilities so that you do not get saddled with fixed costs. Organisations which have had to work with tight budgets in difficult times learnt this lesson even if on the face of it in the short term the apparent cost seemed higher. I have seen a lot of businesses develop bad habits whilst awash with cash.

For those that consider I am troll it's a pity. You are the ones supporting the RNLI and if you are happy to pay over the odds for the service then that's fine. I simply wanted to point out that another model was possible which operates - successfully - on one tenth of the budget.

The admiral did however mention that their organisation, depending entirely on volunteers, was often severely stretched and that they would have to reinforce it in the future.

As far as French giving is concerned I have been involved in charity collections in France and they are very very generous. However the SNSM, as such, has only existed since 1967 and they have achieved a lot in 45 years.

 

[Sybarite]

But that boat does not cost 500000

http://www.snsm.org/flotte/vedette-v1

Note he didn't use the link I have provided

Also it is not described a all weather by the French, their new all weather boat which may be a better comparison cost just a trfle more than 500000

http://www.snsm.org/flotte/le-futur-canot-tous-temps

Now you may just see my concern on not starting with an apples for apples comparison. I have given chances for him to comment on this but clearly he has not as it sort of negates some of his argument

Closer to trolling than fair comment in my books

In my first post I said that the boat cost £ 534 000 which was the translation at that days rate of € 670 000.

I think that a boat which is both self-righting and unsinkable might fairly be described as an all weather boat.

The second boat you are showing is 56' long, not the 45' of the Shannon. It is € 1 500 000. NB euros, not pounds. Would you expect a 56' boat to cost the same as a 45' one?

If you want an RNLI boat the same size and same performance (roughly) as this French boat, it's going to cost you £ 2 000 000.

 

[maxi77]

In my first post I said that the boat cost £ 534 000 which was the translation at that days rate of € 670 000.

I think that a boat which is both self-righting and unsinkable might fairly be described as an all weather boat.

The second boat you are showing is 56' long, not the 45' of the Shannon. It is € 1 500 000. NB euros, not pounds. Would you expect a 56' boat to cost the same as a 45' one?

If you want an RNLI boat the same size and same performance (roughly) as this French boat, it's going to cost you £ 2 000 000.

You still avoid the point about the French not having carriage launch and even they do not describe the V1 as all weather. This is the problem in your arguement, it is not an apples for apples comparison. At home my nearest all weather boat is carriage launch, the V1 or any other boat in the french fleet would only be avaiable 50% of the time as happens with some boats in France.

There are of course sensible arguements to be had about exactly what is over the top design and what is barely adequate and quite where you need to pitch your own organisation. Now as the chaps/esses who man the RNLI are volunteers I prefer that we tend to overprovide for their safety, I think that is only fair considering what we ask of them.

 

[Bru]

It;s interesting to read up on the development of the Shannon

It's apposite, for instance, that the initial water jet test boat, a commercial pilot boat hull, was seriously considered as the prototype. The decision to develop a custom hull design was taken on the grounds that whilst it was OK, it wasn't as good as it could be (in a nutshell)

Shannon is a no compromise design. It is the best carriage launch all weather lifeboat design the team could come up with. The launching system is equally advanced and unique. The package is without compare, there simply isn't anything that even comes close to offering the capabilities of Shannon and its associated launch system. At £2.5m a pop all in it certainly isn't cheap but then the RNLI can afford the best

As for outsourcing versus in house ...

The economics of outsourcing are all too often a fallacy promulgated by the dreaded bean counters. The RNLI has already taken over hull construction from Green Marine under the SAR Composites banner in 2009 as otherwise it could have run into difficulties with the construction of its existing designs and future builds.

As an engineer rather than a bean counter, and given that RNLI is financially secure for the forseeable future, I would rather see them invest in the in-house ability to design, develop and build future lifeboats.

The alternative reminds me of the astronaut quote about sitting on top of a million components made by the lowest bidder

 

[glashen]

Now as the chaps/esses who man the RNLI are volunteers I prefer that we tend to overprovide for their safety, I think that is only fair considering what we ask of them.

I also think that this is the crux of it, if the RNLI can afford it, the crew deserve the best and I believe that is why many of chuck in our few quid.

If has as been suggested the RNLI are the benchmark for sea rescue organisations globally, that must surely tell us something.

 

[maxi77]

I also think that this is the crux of it, if the RNLI can afford it, the crew deserve the best and I believe that is why many of chuck in our few quid.

If has as been suggested the RNLI are the benchmark for sea rescue organisations globally, that must surely tell us something.

As long as they do not rest on their laurels as they have done in the past.

 

[chanelyacht]

For example their new large (56') all weather state of the art boat which is coming into service about the same time as the Shannon (45') is budgeted at € 1 500 000 whereas the same size of RNLI boat is £ 2 000 000. Both are propellor drive deep water boats so the essential difference in technical requirements would not appear enter into the question.

No, they're not - the Shannon is a jet drive boat, as has been mentioned by I believe a few dozen posts before this. Jets are not propellers.

The production cost of the Shannon is £1.5m - so about the same. The launch and recovery cradle and tractor is about £900k.

So your comparison aimed at showing RNLI overspend is, I'm afraid, an epic fail.

The RNLI are not unquestionable - but please get your facts right before you post.