If I were an RNLI donor I would not be happy.

I must admit that if I was putting money into a multi million pound charity which provided life saving services I would demand that they employed professional management rather than relied on well meaning unemployed persons of good standing who would accept no payment. I do feel that at times the RNLI over guild the lily but I would rather they did that than scrimped too much and lives were lost as a result. RNLI crews do deserve the very best, if for no other reason because they give their services and sometimes their lives just for us. Other nations do things differently as is their option but I feal our model works fine for us even if we could do it for a bit less.

One of the things I notice looking at the Froggy website is that in common with the RNLI they have a lifejacket campaign.
 
Litotes said:
Can the person who posted that be serious? Deciding to change a will on the basis of a thread on an internet forum? I find that hard to believe, although I suppose stranger, and sillier, things do happen........
Click to expand...

Post 109.
I agree; I wouldn't change my will on the basis of a few comments on the internet but there it is.........
 
toad_oftoadhall said:
Not only did he not mean to say it, he didn't say it at all!

You made it up and put it in quotes!
Click to expand...

Thank you, Mr. Toad. As I mentioned, I don't take very seriously arguments based on (very) partial information, in situations where information is key. I'm even less inclined to pay attention to arguments presented by people who feel the need to re-write my posts in order to respond to - well - not what I have posted, but what the words and/or meanings they choose to attribute to me. :)
 
Chrusty 1 said:
From that may I assume that you think all fishermen are brainless, and unable to manage anything?

If my assumption is wrong, I apologise in advance.:)
Click to expand...

No, you can assume that fishermen are very skilled at fishing and I have the greatest respect for them. What I'm saying is that I would prefer an organisation the size and importance of the RNLI to be run by people who are managers by trade and who have experience of running multi million pound budgets. The fact that the RNLI has so much cash, as repeatedly pointed out in this thread, is testament to what can be achieved with the right people at the helm. The fact that the French organisation have no spare cash indicates poor management to me rather than good management. I suspect that if the French had as much money they would also be spending more on boats.
 
No dog in this fight, as I have not sailed in UK waters for many years. But I have no objection to Sybarite's posting all this up for discussion. There have been several threads on the top heavy spending of the RNLI around here.
There has also been quite a lot of comment about charities and their collection methods, 'chuggers' for one. Not to mention the charities commission recent activates targeting private schools in a somewhat political motivated way.
As for certain comments about winging expats, says more about the cret+n that posted, unless he can back it up with proper research.............. Also been plenty of UK residents moaning about the weather on this site. Which is one of the reasons most move south. (not me, by the way)
DW
 
lustyd said:
. The fact that the French organisation have no spare cash indicates poor management to me rather than good management. I suspect that if the French had as much money they would also be spending more on boats.
Click to expand...

HUH? I think the point made was they manage on much less money and do a good job.

The no of shouts might be down to French yachties only calling them when actually needed? Rather than a tow home in time to watch the TV?
Mates actually did call them a couple of weeks ago, but only after they had tried to sort out a swamped boat for an hour or so and decided it was not going to work.
 
DownWest said:
HUH? I think the point made was they manage on much less money and do a good job.

The no of shouts might be down to French yachties only calling them when actually needed? Rather than a tow home in time to watch the TV?
Mates actually did call them a couple of weeks ago, but only after they had tried to sort out a swamped boat for an hour or so and decided it was not going to work.
Click to expand...

My point was that they manage because they have to. The RNLI don't need to manage on pennies because their professional salaried managers succeed in raising sufficient funds for them to have the more expensive equipment as well as keeping sufficient funds in reserve that the service can continue through a recession where's donations may be down.
 
Steve C Cronin said:
I MUST tell you how very inaccurate your perception is.

I have been associated with the Institution for many, many years and have yet to meet anyone, employed or volunteer who could be described as being on an "ego-trip". Most are very hardworking and dedicated and even the paid staff do much overtime for no extra remuneration. Send me a PM with your address and I'll send you some documentation.
Click to expand...

ESL operate the pilot cutters for the North Foreland Pilot station. They have four pilot boats, The Pelorus is an older Nelson design, the Leader, Warden and the Escourt are newer 50 foot designes. They operate in all weathers round the clock. Indeed they go out in weather that is as bad as any lifeboat. However the fleet is maintained from a small workshop under the arches in Ramsgate harbour It is a simple operation without fuss. You have to look hard to find them.

By comparison, the buildings on Quay Road Poole are very nice, lots of pavement, lots of fancy windows, impressive facias... None of that lot goes to sea but it looks good.. I call that an ego trip...

So whilst most people work hard... a lot of money is spent on things other than saving lives...
 
Sailfree said:
The biggest reason for the UK being where it is now is arrogance.

We have the best Army, the best health service, the best education, the best Universities and from many opinions on here the best sea rescue service eg the RNLI.

Why can we not learn that while we were once at the forefront of most things others have copied them and why can't we accept that johnny foreigner may well have improved on them.

The only way to be the best is to look at how others do it and take the best bits from each. The people who are best positioned to spot the ways that other countries perform are ex UK citizens that live in other countries and understand the other countries systems.

We should not mix up the hard work of good teachers/lecturers/doctors/nurses with the bad management that detracts from their efforts and creates waste in the system. Nor should we confuse the efforts and sometimes heroics of the front line personal with the poor management/efficiency of what Americans call the REMF (rear etchelon mother F* ckers).

Sybarite has quite reasonably initially drawn a comparison between the French rescue service boat and the UK boat costs that is worthy of serious consideration. It has developed into a slanging match with many telling him to shut up as he lives abroad and is questioning the running of their sacred cow. It has expanded into the salaries paid to a number of HQ staff.

It appears that the good work, the mainly volunteer crews do, has created a understandable emotion that has caused generous contributions and resulted in the RNLI being well funded and with v large financial reserves. I would liken this emotive response to how so many contribute to Dogs for the Blind charities leaving them with vast excesses but so few to the actual blind people.

I was surprised that there were not more questions asked with the expenditure on the new Poole HQ.

The facts remain the RNLI do a great job, their good PR has resulted in them being generously supported but that should not stop us looking analytically at their organisation and ensuring that we are getting value for money and frankly if I was a regular financial contributor or a volunteer I would be annoyed if money was being mis-spent especially on high salaries to HQ staff.

Sybarite has raised a sensible question that merits serious debate and not for him to be derided.

If nothing else this thread has revealed the ignorance of some regarding not all crews being volunteers but some being paid employees and funnily the very same were the ones that wanted to shut Sybarite up!! I suppose if you know nothing its best to react by trying to shut up informed people. If anyone is going to be rewarded I would prefer it to be the crews!!

I never thought I would ever be agreeing with Toad - must go and have a lie down now to recover!!
Click to expand...

+1
 
I have been out of contact today and so I would like to come back on a few points raised:

1 - I am in no way criticising the volunteers or crews. (for the fourth or fifth time).
2 - The notion of volunteer goes further in France than in the UK.
3 - There is an automatic assumption that the UK is better. However apart from national hubris nobody seems to be able to objectively substantiate his position.
4 - I started by comparing two boats of similar size. I know the yard that builds the French boats and these boats are beautifully built. The yard also builds trawlers so they have an idea of what is required for an offshore all weather boat. Yet there is an automatic assumption that because the uk boat is three times dearer it must be better. I watched the video where the Shannon was being tested in rough weather. At one moment when travelling at high speed it went into a breaking wave and stopped dead. IMHO the bulbous bow profile of the French boat would have allowed it to pass much more easily.
5 - Someone asked how long the French boats would last. In the accounts they are amortised over 30 years which is longer than the amortisation periods of the UK boats. When you look at their construction, that would not surprise me.
6 - When I referred to fishermen it was in the context of crew; although the context was clumsy it is disingenuous to willingly confuse the issue.
7 - My own charitable giving is my business.
8 - There is an assumption that to get the right level of professional management you have to pay the market rates. Well in France they get the right people free. Managers who can bring on line a super boat at one third the rate of their Uk counterparts. If you were to extrapolate the market analogy, which manager would you want running your affairs?
 
Last edited:
Chrusty 1 said:
+1 Also with regard to Sybarite, I am reminded of the old saying, "He knows the cost of everything, but not the value of anything"
Click to expand...

Actually the saying is "(a cynic) is a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing." (Oscar Wilde)

Everybody knows the price; it's the value I'm questionning.

I think your remark should be directed at those who see no problem in paying an extra £ 1 million pounds for what is, arguably, only a marginally better boat.
 
Last edited:
Brigantia;

By the way, one fact that hasn't been mentioned yet is that the SNSM receives 35% of its funding from the government (national, regional and local). The RNLI receives no income at all from government in any form (although beach lifeguards are paid by the appropriate local council)

[/QUOTE]

In fact, yes it has been discussed except that the figure is 29% and not 35%.

But then that's 29% of £18 million and not 29% of £150 million.
 
Sybarite said:
Actually the saying is "(a cynic) is a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing." (Oscar Wilde)

Everybody knows the price; it's the value I'm questionning.

I think your remark should be directed at those who see no problem in paying an extra £ 1 million pounds for what is, arguably, only a marginally better boat.
Click to expand...

Think what you like, but do you really think that posting what you have on this forum will have any effect on the way the RNLI is run, or the way most people in this country feel about it?

As has been already suggested, you want to blow your trumpet, join as a Governor or Life Governor and go to meetings and blow it there. I would very much like to be there when you do.

I think you posted to simply whip up an argument for your own satisfaction. I for one am very happy with the way the RNLI is run, and I have no wish whatsoever to see it changed because a few bean counters thinks it should.
 
Sailfree said:
Read post 126 with your glasses on. Selective quote I agree but a quote never the less.
Click to expand...

Perhaps you should have read the original post with your mind in gear. Unless, of course, your selection of a few words in order to achieve total distortion of the meaning was a deliberate piece of dishonesty?
 
Sybarite said:
Brigantia;

By the way, one fact that hasn't been mentioned yet is that the SNSM receives 35% of its funding from the government (national, regional and local). The RNLI receives no income at all from government in any form (although beach lifeguards are paid by the appropriate local council)
Click to expand...

In fact, yes it has been discussed except that the figure is 29% and not 35%.

But then that's 29% of £18 million and not 29% of £150 million.[/QUOTE]

Am even more confused now, I understood the French life boat service gets around 70% of its income from donations, it appears it also relies on around 30% from the Government. Where does the income it derives from charging people fairly large sums of money to rescue their boats appear in the accounts. Also do you know if this is shared between the crew members? Again no criticism of the charge, but cannot see how it can be considered a 'donation'.

Lastly if the figure of 70% donations is correct, that would mean the French people give around ££11m to their life boat service, the British around £150m. Are the French generally not into giving to charity or do they just not appreciate the life boat service. Or is it the fact that they have to pay to have their boat saved that makes them reluctant, just a thought.
 
jordanbasset said:
Lastly if the figure of 70% donations is correct, that would mean the French people give around ££11m to their life boat service, the British around £150m. Are the French generally not into giving to charity or do they just not appreciate the life boat service. Or is it the fact that they have to pay to have their boat saved that makes them reluctant, just a thought.
Click to expand...

You're missing the option that their service is poorly managed and has poor marketing because they don't pay their staff. If they did, they might fetch £150m like the RNLI does. Perhaps if they had a flashy headquarters people would notice them more, they may even have used that in some kind of national press release to raise profile...
 
Sybarite said:
In fact, yes it has been discussed except that the figure is 29% and not 35%..
Click to expand...

I must have missed that, which post?

The 35% figure came, I grant, from a secondary source (Wikipedia) upon which I would not place too much reliance. However, I can find no reference anywhere to a 29% figure (quite the opposite, several other secondary references refer to 50/50 funding). I do not read French at all well I hasten to point out so sources in French are going through Google translate

Plus, I am still in the dark as to the charges SNSM levy for salvage. Are this distriubuted amongst the crew or do they go into general funds?

Either way, the more that emerges the further apart the two models become

I am NOT saying that the French model is (necessarily) bad. However, I started out doubting the basis of comparison and the more I learn the lmore convinced I become that whilst superficially similar comparing the two operations is like comparing chalk with cheese.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top