If I buy a boat in Spain will I need the ICC to sail localy.

[Contest1]

I know, back to option A, previous post re buying in the Med.
I,m going over next week to have an initial inspection on a British Registered cruiser near Alicante.
Having only sailed here in Ireland I never bothered with any certification.
I,m wondering will I need the ICC immediately or as I,m planning on taking over the pontoon lease for this year will I have to any problems sailing localy.
Assuming all goes according to plan I hope to transfere her into my name by end of June.
All advice welcome.

 

[GrahamM376]

I've never been asked for any certificate in Spain, just SSR, insurance and passport but, according to this site, an ICC is required - or, are they just trying to sell courses?

 

[sailaboutvic]

We have now sail in almost every country in Europe and some out of Europe and we have never been ask for my ICC , BUT they can and your are advise to have one to be on the safe side . You only need one CG who's is having a bad day ,do you really want the Hassle

 

[charles_reed]

We have now sail in almost every country in Europe and some out of Europe and we have never been ask for my ICC , BUT they can and your are advise to have one to be on the safe side . You only need one CG who's is having a bad day ,do you really want the Hassle

As Vic says, never been asked for it, usually interest, if any, is in BoT Yachtmaster. But in absence of any other certification would suggest it's a necessary safeguard.

PS British registered yacht - more than 6 months in Spanish waters? There are other "certification issues" you need to look into - even if you're not resident - ask the CA or the RYA. Very dependent on the provincia in which the boat is kept.

 

[Sea Devil]

As Vic says, never been asked for it, usually interest, if any, is in BoT Yachtmaster. But in absence of any other certification would suggest it's a necessary safeguard.

PS British registered yacht - more than 6 months in Spanish waters? There are other "certification issues" you need to look into - even if you're not resident - ask the CA or the RYA. Very dependent on the provincia in which the boat is kept.

You do not need a ICC for Spain if you are a 'foreign visitor' and are not resident in Spain in the technical sense of the word - more here: http://www.michaelbriant.com/spain_boat_rules.htm

By international maritime law, visiting ships abide by the laws or their country of origin and the UK has no requirement for a certificate of competence to skipper a boat.

Like everybody else during 45 years of foreign waters sailing, 10 in the Med plus sailing around the world, I have never been asked for a ICC or any other qualification.

If you were technically a resident of Spain - living aboard for more than 183 days in any 12 month period - you would become a 'resident'. Unless you 'import' the boat within the first month of your residency you will be required to pay a 12% matriculation tax on their estimation of the value of the boat. There is an option to then to keep boat UK flagged (as mine is) and then you do not need to have any sort of 'driving permit'. If you decide to have the boat Spanish flagged then by law you need to pass exams both written and practical to obtain a licence. The bigger the boat the harder the licence and it is all in Spanish with no translation allowed!!!!

Provided you do not spend more than 6 months of the year on board in Spain you need not bother with all the above. Your boat can remain in Spanish waters for ever. It is you and not the boat that creates residency. There are no other issues with the boat permanently in Spanish waters.

fair winds and it's a great place to keep a boat - the officials are polite and friendly.

Michael

 

[jimbaerselman]

By international maritime law, visiting ships abide by the laws or their country of origin and the UK has no requirement for a certificate of competence to skipper a boat.

Errrm. Only applies to vessels on "innocent passage". Vessels which base themselves in an oversea country, or which cruise from port to port, are not regarded as on innocent passage. So, if they wished, local authorities could call for local regulations to apply. In practice, most authorities don't apply local regulations.

Like everybody else during 45 years of foreign waters sailing, 10 in the Med plus sailing around the world, I have never been asked for a ICC or any other qualification.

Two exceptions I'm aware of. First, Croatia keeps a list of national certificates which are acceptable, and when first cruising their waters, will usually ask to see your "certificate". Second, I've had a few reports that after an "incident" a certificate was asked for, and in one case in Turkey, a person who couldn't produce a certificate was not allowed to leave harbour until he'd demonstrated his competence to a local examiner.

 

[Tranona]

By international maritime law, visiting ships abide by the laws or their country of origin and the UK has no requirement for a certificate of competence to skipper a boat.



Michael

Michael

You really need to update your information on your site. As Jim says, what you are advising is simply not true. Coastal states are perfectly within their rights to impose their rules on visitors in their territorial waters or on their inland waterways, with the (possible) exception of when the boat is on "innocent passage". There are many examples of where this is the case, again Jim has given a couple and you can add Portugal and New Zealand to that list.

What constitutes innocent passage in relation to private yachts is unclear, but logic leads one to the conclusion that cruising from one port to another in territorial waters is not innocent passage. In the case of Portugal, they now consider non Portuguese flagged boats that are in Portugal for more than 180 days a year as being resident and subject to local rules for equipment.

Just because you have not been asked for any qualifications, does not alter the fact that countries are increasingly imposing such conditions, particularly on visiting skippers using locally registered boats (for example by hire or charter), but also, again as Jim points out either if the visitor is involved in an incident or through regular inspection. So it makes sense to be prepared.

As a matter of interest, what you are describing is more properly covered by the principle of "comity" - that is one state recognising the laws of another in particular situations. In the commercial shipping world this has been progressively eroded by international agreements which give authorities in coastal states much greater powers to detain and inspect visiting ships for compliance with international agreed standards on safety and manning. While there is little evidence of this happening in the world of private boating, although the UN agreement on ICCs is a first step, it is inevitable that some states will make their own rules as in the examples already given.

 

[Contest1]

Thanks all,
getting the ICC anyway but now will make it a priority.
Bit concerned re Vic.s PS.
I,m certain the boat has spent some time in the Alicante region and I,m thinking of keeping her there untill next spring, sailing localy and living aboard between trips home.
Do I face additional expenses on top of the marina costs?

 

[Sea Devil]

And New Zealand was forced to back down.. I know because I was there shortly after the court case. My boat did not conform to the NZ rules and as I was checking out they asked me to list my equipment to conform with their local law and I remarked they could not force me to. The official said 'we are only trying to keep you safe but you are of course free to leave without conforming to our law......

I think this all is a bit armchair sailor and sea lawyer comments, sometimes by people who have little practical experience - I know this is not the case with Traona - from your posts you are clearly very, very experienced and I am grateful for bring told it was the UN - is that United Nations - who created inland waterways regs... My goodness - you live and learn...

Just teasing.....

However the ICC is a Brit thing... Spain, France, Italy, USA, in fact every other seafaring country in the world, have their own bit of paper of competence or not...

You would be amazed at the vast assortment of radically different boat registration documents. Almost none of EU or indeed world wide officials have ever heard of the RYA, ICC or give a toss about them. You must have a boat registration document like a SSR and most marinas & ports want at least nan 3rd party insurance plus your passport or ID card and that's it... Honest - That's the way it is.

I can't be bothered to keep on repeating; When was anybody you know of, at first hand, ever been asked for an ICC?

If the United Nations - a very august body - has legislated about inland waterways, ICC, CEVNI please post the reference number to this legislation.

If the French require an ICC of us Brits then please post the reference from the VNF web site or French Waterways law.

Anyway I am off sailing towards Sicily so can't be bothered any more, but look forward to seeing the UN & VNF references which prove me wrong that you are going to post when I next look at this forum.

Have a super summers sailing

Michael

 

[GrahamM376]

If the United Nations - a very august body - has legislated about inland waterways, ICC, CEVNI please post the reference number to this legislation.

Read Resolution 40 - http://www.batliv.se/batforarintyg/ICC_res1_40_eng .pdf

The RYA site details which countries have signed up to this and for which waters.

 

[capnsensible]

I can't be bothered to keep on repeating; When was anybody you know of, at first hand, ever been asked for an ICC?


Michael

I have been asked twice.

Once in Sotogrande, Spain and once in Croatia.

 

[PlanB]

And we were asked once in France.

 

[jimbaerselman]

I think this all is a bit armchair sailor and sea lawyer comments, sometimes by people who have little practical experience - I know this is not the case with Traona - from your posts you are clearly very, very experienced and I am grateful for bring told it was the UN - is that United Nations - who created inland waterways regs... My goodness - you live and learn...

A stumble of the keyboard - it's an EU recommendation, recognised by the UN.

However the ICC is a Brit thing... Spain, France, Italy, USA, in fact every other seafaring country in the world, have their own bit of paper of competence or not...

No, it's an EU thing, recognised by the UN, and accepted throughout the EU (even though some countries have not yet signed up for it) as adequate for visiting sailors. And, no, it doesn't replace local certificates if those are required for local residents sailing locally registered boats. Excepting for leisure boats on European mainland inland waterways, when it's the only means of registering the fact that you've passed a CEVNI test - you know the inland waterway rules.

If the United Nations :blue: Errm. EU, recognised by the UN :blue:- a very august body - has legislated about inland waterways, ICC, CEVNI please post the reference number to this legislation.

If the French require an ICC of us Brits then please post the reference

Indeed, neither the UN nor the EU legislate for individual countries. However, when navigating the waterways of France, the EU recommendation (already posted) has been incorporated in French law. The reasons were sound - many European waterways are boundaries between two countries, and just as many pass through many countries. So a universal Europe code was established - the European inland waterway equivalent of IRPCS.

 

[Sea Devil]

Thank you for taking the trouble to post the link to the UN site.

What the link refers to is a recommended 'suggestion'[ for a paper that could be universally agreed as evidence of qualifications to skipper a private boat. A few countries, including the UK have signed up to the recommendation.

Nowhere in the document does it say boat 'drivers' are required to hold this document.

The RYA as a self financing organisation is going to push this paper and suggest it is essential as it produces a source of revenue. They need the income so to suggest it is not obligatory would be daft!.

I repeat yet again please show me where in French Waterways legislation does it show that an ICC is a requirement for foreign vessel's skipper.

 

[PlanB]

We've had the debate ad infinitum about whether or not there is a legal requirement to have an ICC.
The fact is that if an armed official thinks he'd like to see one, it makes sense to have one to show him

 

[Contest1]

We've had the debate ad infinitum about whether or not there is a legal requirement to have an ICC.
The fact is that if an armed official thinks he'd like to see ine, it makes sense to have one to show him

A good point.

 

[concentrik]

If you were technically a resident of Spain - living aboard for more than 183 days in any 12 month period - you would become a 'resident'.

Michael

Sorry for the slight thread drift but since this affects me imminently I should ask...... I thought it was 183 days in a Spanish fiscal year (rather than a rolling 365) which is a natural year (from 1st Jan) rather than our 5th April? Have I missed some recent change (quite likely!)?

 

[25931]

What you will require for certain is third party insurance.
Apart from legalities -
It might be a good idea to ask the insurance people if they require a piece of paper.
If you should be involved in an accident a qualification might be convenient.

 

[PlanB]

Sorry for the slight thread drift but since this affects me imminently I should ask...... I thought it was 183 days in a Spanish fiscal year (rather than a rolling 365) which is a natural year (from 1st Jan) rather than our 5th April? Have I missed some recent change (quite likely!)?

You are right - it is 183 days in any year running from 1 Jan to 31 Dec.

 

[Sybarite]

A stumble of the keyboard - it's an EU recommendation, recognised by the UN.


No, it's an EU thing, recognised by the UN, and accepted throughout the EU (even though some countries have not yet signed up for it) as adequate for visiting sailors. And, no, it doesn't replace local certificates if those are required for local residents sailing locally registered boats. Excepting for leisure boats on European mainland inland waterways, when it's the only means of registering the fact that you've passed a CEVNI test - you know the inland waterway rules.

Indeed, neither the UN nor the EU legislate for individual countries. However, when navigating the waterways of France, the EU recommendation (already posted) has been incorporated in French law. The reasons were sound - many European waterways are boundaries between two countries, and just as many pass through many countries. So a universal Europe code was established - the European inland waterway equivalent of IRPCS.

In France you need a "permis" for a motorboat with more a than 6hp engine. By definition a sailing boat becomes a motor boat in inland waterways.