If I buy a boat in Spain will I need the ICC to sail localy.

[Sybarite]

Surprised to see this thread reappear!
I'm sailing regularly in Spain since buying my Contest 29 and never been asked for the ICC.
Got one just in case anyway.
Now if only Ireland would get on with the promised Small Craft Register I would be totally legal flying my Tricolour.

My contacts with the French Douane indicated that the thing they really care about is the justification for the flag. Wearing one without justification is opening yourself to trouble up to and including the confiscation of the boat.

It's one area not to mess about with.

 

[nortada]

My contacts with the French Douane indicated that the thing they really care about is the justification for the flag. Wearing one without justification is opening yourself to trouble up to and including the confiscation of the boat.

It's one area not to mess about with.

Be interested to hear of any boats that have actually been confiscated?

Frequently have been advised of positive action by the authorities; fines, boats impounded, boats confiscated and even skippers imprisoned but further investigations never seems to confirm these reports of rather draconian actions

 

[Contest1]

My contacts with the French Douane indicated that the thing they really care about is the justification for the flag. Wearing one without justification is opening yourself to trouble up to and including the confiscation of the boat.

It's one area not to mess about with.

I have been stopped by the Spanish marines during an exercise but they didn't even ask for any paperwork, just told us to keep away. The marinas don't seem too concerned either.

 

[Grehan]

The French requirement is for a CEVNI. However they usually tolerate an ICC instead but are not obliged to.

Not quite true. The general requirement throughout the European Inland Waterways is for ICC (showing you can handle a boat) plus CEVNI (showing that you know the rules, signals and signs of the inland waterways). That may be superseded by local qualifications, eg in France the PP or GP.
.................- https://www.french-waterways.com/practicalities/competence/

Just for the record, we have never been asked for ICC+CEVNI but we are now in a pretty remote corner of the network. When sailing I think our RYA qualifications/certif came in useful somewhere, required or not. Being asked for insurance and ship's papers is much more usual.

 

[JamesFrance]

Plenty of folk have reported being asked for an ICC and produced one, but I am still waiting to hear from anyone without one who has been refused entry or prosecuted by another country.

 

[capnsensible]

Simply consider this. You are driving a car somewhere across any country. Fine. No problem.

Then you are involved in some kind of accident. 'Senor, I want to see your insurance', 'Monsieur, I want to see you licence', 'Herr, where is you car document'??

Well its much the same with boats. You are rarely gonna get asked unless you or someone else cocks up. Then you gotta problem......

 

[BrianH]

Plenty of folk have reported being asked for an ICC and produced one, but I am still waiting to hear from anyone without one who has been refused entry or prosecuted by another country.

Perhaps not quite a first person experience you ask for, but about ten years ago, clearing from Umag in Croatia in the harbourmaster's office prior to returning to Italy, I witnessed a skipper in a heated argument with the HM because he had no 'Certificate of Competence' among his documentation for clearing into Croatia, saying that his flag state did not require one.

The HM was adamant that he needed one or he would be denied entry. The alternative was to wait until the following day to be examined for a Croatian certificate at a cost of €200. I left the office before the issue was resolved, so I know not what the skipper decided.

As you may have surmised, he was a Brit. and he was not being diplomatic, which wasn't helping him and dissuaded me from joining in to calm him down and convince him that any country can insist on any requirements they wish of their visitors.

 

[JamesFrance]

It probably depends on whether some local officialdom can overrule international law which is for the home country's regulations to apply when going foreign, until this is tested in law we will never know.

 

[Tranona]

It probably depends on whether some local officialdom can overrule international law which is for the home country's regulations to apply when going foreign, until this is tested in law we will never know.

That is not what international law says no matter what you might think. What you are describing is a convention - but it relies on the principle of "comity" that is the coastal state respecting the law of the flag state.

This convention is almost universal when the vessel is on "innocent passage" through the coastal state territorial waters. However once you enter port and particularly if you then sail from port to port in the coastal state's waters that state can require you to comply with its laws, either in total or selectively. Many states already do this, even if enforcement is patchy.

Croatia is one of those states, so as Barnacle says if you adopt the attitude that "international law says..." you are likely to get a rude awakening!

For a slightly more detailed explanation suggest you read the RYA advice on the subject.

 

[Tony Cross]

Plenty of folk have reported being asked for an ICC and produced one, but I am still waiting to hear from anyone without one who has been refused entry or prosecuted by another country.

And that quite probably would not happen, but not having an ICC wen asked for one encourages the PP or whoever to start looking more closely at what other rules and regulations you're not following in the hope of finding something bigger (VAT status for example). What you want when approached by officialdom is to present all the basic paperwork they expect, then they'll move on...

 

[JamesFrance]

In 50 years of cruising in the Med I have never had any problem with officials. It seems ridiculous that some useless public servants should have decided that an expensive piece of paper benefiting the RYA money making project should be a requirement for cruising in foreign parts, particularly when all it takes to qualify is a one day course and paying the money demanded.

 

[macd]

In 50 years of cruising in the Med I have never had any problem with officials. It seems ridiculous that some useless public servants should have decided that an expensive piece of paper benefiting the RYA money making project should be a requirement for cruising in foreign parts, particularly when all it takes to qualify is a one day course and paying the money demanded.

Small world. You didn't happen to be in the harbourmaster's office in Umag, Croatia about ten years ago, did you?

 

[JamesFrance]

Not somewhere I've been but no doubt there are a few jobsworths everywhere so I have probably been lucky, the ones I came across were usually more interested in coming on board for a drink. A Douanes patrol boat in the Glenans in 1970 even tried to get me to part with a bottle of scotch.

 

[BrianH]

Not somewhere I've been but no doubt there are a few jobsworths everywhere so I have probably been lucky, the ones I came across were usually more interested in coming on board for a drink. A Douanes patrol boat in the Glenans in 1970 even tried to get me to part with a bottle of scotch.

It is not a case of "a few jobsworths" in Croatia but their maritime regulations that specify all visiting yachts have a formally qualified skipper to be granted entry clearance. Here is the relevant extract from the government publication:

3. PERMITS FOR OPERATING BOATS AND YACHTS
In order to operate a boat or yacht, a person must be trained in accordance with the regulations of the flag
state of the boat or yacht, and if no training on boat operation is prescribed in the home country, Croatian regulations apply. A person operating a boat or yacht of Croatian nationality, depending on the category of the boat and/or yacht, must possess a Boat master competency certificate or a Proficiency certificate for yacht helmsman or a document/permit to operate a boat or yacht issued by the competent authorities of foreign countries and recognized by the Ministry of the Sea, Transport and Infrastructure. A list of recognized foreign documents/permits is published on the Ministry of the Sea, Transport and Infrastructure website: http://www.mppi.hr/UserDocsImages/TABLICA (2)MoU 6-2_13.pdf​

It was very clear why the Umag HM required a 'Certificate of Competence' (not necessarily an ICC, the last line shows a pdf file that contains all acceptable certificates) and failing one with the "home country" [UK}, he was applying the alternative of "Croatian regulations apply" by offering an examination for a Croatian permit.

It is known by all my contacts in Italy who cruise to Croatia that required documentation for entry are:

1. Ship registration
2. Insurance certificate
3. Certificate of competence (ideally ICC) for skipper
4. VHF SRC for anyone aboard
5. Ship radio licence
6. Passports for all aboard
7. Crew list stamped by Italian Carabinieri in port of departure
​

I'm sure control in all ports of entry is moot, but those are the formal regulations, ignore them if you wish - but I do not.

 

[Tranona]

In 50 years of cruising in the Med I have never had any problem with officials. It seems ridiculous that some useless public servants should have decided that an expensive piece of paper benefiting the RYA money making project should be a requirement for cruising in foreign parts, particularly when all it takes to qualify is a one day course and paying the money demanded.

You are not alone in never having problems with officialdom. You can say exactly the same about almost all the population in all spheres of life.

However, that does not change your misunderstanding of the law, nor of the status of the ICC which is nothing directly to do with the RYA. The ICC is established under a UN convention with the aim of providing a yachtsman with a universally acceptable certificate showing their basic competence, so avoiding potential difficulties with meeting local requirements. Only governments can issue this certificate under the convention. It has achieved this aim in part and for all its deficiencies is the only certificate that meets this requirement.

The RYA is one of the bodies that have delegated responsibility from the UK government to issue the certificate, which it does either in conjunction with its own MCA approved certificates or on completion of a dedicated assessment following the requirements of the ICC. Not unreasonable to charge for this service as the only one that benefits is the individual that requires the certificate - and of course there is a cost directly related to assessment and subsequent issue of the certificate.

 

[JamesFrance]

I just think that an ICC, which requires no knowledge of navigation or even rules for preventing collisions at sea, but is simply proof of being taught basic boat handling, could be considered to be proof of competence. It's laughable bureaucratic nonsense.

 

[capnsensible]

I just think that an ICC, which requires no knowledge of navigation or even rules for preventing collisions at sea, but is simply proof of being taught basic boat handling, could be considered to be proof of competence. It's laughable bureaucratic nonsense.

Seems you are somewhat under informed about the ICC.....

https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/boating-abroad/icc/Pages/what-is-the-icc.aspx

Look at the application form. You can even down load it as a reminder so you dont sound a bit ill informed.

Especially the bits about navigation and rule of the road.

 

[JamesFrance]

Sorry to be outed as ignorant by someone in a yellow submarine calling himself sensible, I don' t think there is any point in continuing this discussion so I am out of it. The same RYA supporters have been repeating the same stuff on this forum for years and clearly other opinions are not welcome.

 

[capnsensible]

Sorry to be outed as ignorant by someone in a yellow submarine calling himself sensible, I don' t think there is any point in continuing this discussion so I am out of it. The same RYA supporters have been repeating the same stuff on this forum for years and clearly other opinions are not welcome.

Its not a question of opinion at all. You are simply repeating ill informed nonsense that is factually incorrect.

It would be a shame if other readers of this forum were misled by you. I am happy to correct those errors.

Especially as I have tested loadsa people for the award of an ICC. On behalf of Recognised Training Centres in the UK, Gibraltar and Spain.

 

[Tranona]

Sorry to be outed as ignorant by someone in a yellow submarine calling himself sensible, I don' t think there is any point in continuing this discussion so I am out of it. The same RYA supporters have been repeating the same stuff on this forum for years and clearly other opinions are not welcome.

Not a good idea to insult people who demonstrably know more about the subject than you.

You are entitled to your opinion but at least get your FACTS right. The ICC requirements are nothing to do with the RYA as I have already explained but established by an international group under the auspices of the UN.

Difficult to have a "discussion" when one party ignores the facts and just promotes his own opinions.