ICC: What's the actual 24m limit?

Nick_H said:
Balearick

None of my business, but your shortlist is unusual to say the least. There's a world of difference between a 28m hardtop with surface drives and a 22m flybridge with shafts, and they would normally be bought by different types of buyers wanting different things from their boating. If the Coauch is the type of boat you really want, but you miss out on the one you're looking at, then why not look for a similar boat like a Leopard, Mangusta, etc, or even a SS Predator?
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You're absolutely right Nick, they're apples and oranges. I have a sports open at the moment and so I'm drawn to another sports open, but I have 2 important 'wants' in a boat this time round and they're a bit strange but one of them will explain why a flybridge boat is also in the running...

For someone who loves boats I have a huge problem: I suffer badly from motion sickness. If I'm at the helm doing stuff I'm fine as long as the helm position is very open and there's 'wind in my hair' and the horizon all round. My first Fairline Targa a decade ago was fine (but a bit small, lolled about a bit) and my current Absolute 45 is great - nice open boats, lots of 'wind in your hair'. Now I'm getting ready to move onwards to the next boat I'm looking for one very important thing: a helm as open as possible to give me the breeze/air/space/openness. A flybridge helm is just that - just me and the horizon. Swmbo gets all the room she wants for friends, but me - a pack of ginger biscuits, a can of red bull, and I'm as happy as pie up there in the breeze :)

However I love the shape of Open boats, the speed, the practicality, the visibility when docking, and think the Couach 28 Open is gorgeous - right up my street for style of interior, a superb garage, and the plus for me: the helm is very airy. However the Couach is right on the outer limit, and not just of my ICC.

SS Predator is a good alternative (I don't know the helm on those, would have to try), Mangusta I actually don't like (doesn't do it for me) - however an Open that does also get it right for me is the new Fairline Targa 58 (the one just out now) which has electric roll down side windows - the whole side windows disappear, so with the open roof and windows gone the Targa 58 feels like an "all open" boat (I'm quite impressed with that new Targa trick).
 
tinkicker0 said:
Interesting thread. Smallish drift though :

Thought RYA PB2 and the accompanying ICC obtained from it only covered up to 10m? I'm sure that's what it states on mine, although not had it out of the drawer for many a moon.
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There are 2 levels of ICC: Up to 10m or Up to 25m

(they're different exams done on different size boats)
 
Others to consider IMO
The new Atlantis 58 is as open, as you can get and very spacious cockpit deck which looks coming from a boat ten feet bigger. It was launched at Cannes and the side windows open all, but you have no patio door aft. Went aboard the 48 and the way the space is use for us in the Med I think it makes more sense that a patio door hard top boat, even if this opens all....
Overmarine Mangusta 80 Open, the old fully open model. Another one which has the side windows which open is the Baia 70 Italia.
Others to consider are also Itama Seventy Five, and the new Riva 63 Virtus which will launch in Genova.
 
tinkicker0 said:
For Powerboat Level 2, Powerboat Advanced, Day Skipper and Yachtmaster Coastal Certificates of Competence: Valid for vessels of up to 24 metres in length used for commercial purposes subject to the codes of practice issued by the MCA until (date of expiry).

Interesting thread. Smallish drift though :

Thought RYA PB2 and the accompanying ICC obtained from it only covered up to 10m? I'm sure that's what it states on mine, although not had it out of the drawer for many a moon.
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For commercial purposes the Level 2 covers you for up to 24 m (and up to 3NM from a nominated point of departure by daylight and in favourable weather). The ICC that results from the Level 2 is only a leisure ticket and restricted to 10m.

Summary of commercial qualifications for craft up to 200 tonnes - http://www.stormforce.biz/information-pages/resources/professional-skippers.html
 
Balearick said:
For someone who loves boats I have a huge problem: I suffer badly from motion sickness.
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Balearic, have you thought about buying a with stabilisers? These have an amazing effect in eliminating motion. There is little stock of used boats so it likely would have to be a new boat, or you could get them retrofitted to a used boat (Osmotech are gearing up to retro fit Sleipner stabs)

Sleipner are just about to put a vid on Youtube showing a split video screen of my boat with left/right of screen with/without stabs and you'll see how good they are (I have seen the video in draft in last couple of days)

They would be about £100k to retrofit to a Sq74 or 78 but if you take that into account in your budget it could make sense. Osmotech have specifically considered (in the last month or so) on a customer boat the retrofitting of stabs to a Sq78 but obviously there is a wide range of boats that they can bee fitted to
 
jfm said:
Balearic, have you thought about buying a with stabilisers? These have an amazing effect in eliminating motion. There is little stock of used boats so it likely would have to be a new boat, or you could get them retrofitted to a used boat (Osmotech are gearing up to retro fit Sleipner stabs)
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Before reading of your fitting them to a Squadron I didn't even know they existed for anything smaller than russian billionaire yachts. I think retrofitting them (to say a large Couach) might be inviting problems but fitting them during a new build is a great solution. Buying new might be another variable I have to consider... For what I was planning on paying for a large used boat that sleeps 8, if I bought new I'd have to come down in size to stay within the same budget - say to something like a Targa 58. I was on a T58 last Friday - very impressed with its disappearing roof, windows and patio doors trick (worth sacrificing the extra 2 guests for those features alone, and I could add stabilisers during the build...).
 
Balearick said:
I think retrofitting them (to say a large Couach) might be inviting problems but fitting them during a new build is a great solution.

Targa 58 ... and I could add stabilisers during the build...).
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Not so sure this is the case, currently. Of course fitting them during build is better, but anything up to 70 feet, including t58 for sure, is going to be a production line boat and the manufacturer just won't want (I expect) to disrupt the production line to do this fairly massive one-off. your only hope would be if they plan offering them as an option anyway in which case they should be glad for you to come along and be customer #1. But i doubt it currently

In contrast, retrofitting makes perfectly good sense and with a good team like Osmotech's it is perfectly do-able
 
jfm said:
Not so sure this is the case, currently. Of course fitting them during build is better, but anything up to 70 feet, including t58 for sure, is going to be a production line boat and the manufacturer just won't want (I expect) to disrupt the production line to do this fairly massive one-off. your only hope would be if they plan offering them as an option anyway in which case they should be glad for you to come along and be customer #1. But i doubt it currently

In contrast, retrofitting makes perfectly good sense and with a good team like Osmotech's it is perfectly do-able
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Princess offer gyros as an option fit on boats of that length, so quite possible that Fairline do as well.
 
Nick_H said:
Princess offer gyros as an option fit on boats of that length, so quite possible that Fairline do as well.
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I suddenly see a use for what I thought was a useless crew cabin on the stern of the Targa 58 (useless to me as I have no crew and useless as a lazarette as it's too deep) - I could fit 2 seakeeper gyros in there :)

Seakeeper list Fairline as a customer so maybe...
 
Balearick said:
I suddenly see a use for what I thought was a useless crew cabin on the stern of the Targa 58 (useless to me as I have no crew and useless as a lazarette as it's too deep) - I could fit 2 seakeeper gyros in there :)

Seakeeper list Fairline as a customer so maybe...
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Yup, you could probably do that. You'd only need one seakeeper 7000A on a T58. They weigh something like 500kg and that's quite a lot of weight so far aft, but you'll probably get away with it. Cost of the unit is about usd 60k ex factory so this will be a £75k upgrade, very approximately. Should work very well at anchor (pretty much as good as fins) but less so underway when running fast or in very big seas.

Fairline are a customer of seakeeper in that they have done 2 squadron 78s with 2x seakeeper 7000 each. (7000A is the new upgradde on the 7000). But I still think they wont want to factory install in a t58 which is a pure production boat. It'll be a dealer retro fit job I'd expect, though there is nothing wrong with that.
 
There's a further upgrade now from 7000a to 8000, with an approx 15% increase in anti rolling torque, so one should be plenty. Princess achieved a 75% reduction in resonant roll on a P62 with the previous version, so its likely you'd get very good results on a lighter T58 with lower CoG, though less effective the faster you go, as stated. It's a £57k option list price, ex VAT on a P60, and is fitted at the factory on the production line, not dealer upgrade.

Interestingly, the print literature from Seakeeper makes a big play about reducing sea sickness, but there's no mention of it on the web site? Don't know if we should read anything into that?
 
Nick_H said:
There's a further upgrade now from 7000a to 8000, with an approx 15% increase in anti rolling torque, so one should be plenty. Princess achieved a 75% reduction in resonant roll on a P62 with the previous version, so its likely you'd get very good results on a lighter T58 with lower CoG, though less effective the faster you go, as stated. It's a £57k option list price, ex VAT on a P60, and is fitted at the factory on the production line, not dealer upgrade.
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{an hour of googling later...} It sounds like Seakeeper has the slight edge over fins at anchor and the price is less than fins, but I'm not sure I like the baggage a gyro comes with: They need 20 minutes to get going, 35 mins to get to the right speed. When you're back at the dock and want to just hose down and lock up, you can't... a cooling pump has to run for an hour as they spin down. Weighs the same as 5 fat blokes sitting aft. Needs 3kW to spool up and 1kW to run, so the genny has to run constantly. Is the hassle worth not feeling seasick... probably yes since it makes the difference between a nice day and a ruined day.

(BTW apologies to everyone for this thread going way OT)
 
Balearick said:
{an hour of googling later...} It sounds like Seakeeper has the slight edge over fins at anchor and the price is less than fins, but I'm not sure I like the baggage a gyro comes with: They need 20 minutes to get going, 35 mins to get to the right speed. When you're back at the dock and want to just hose down and lock up, you can't... a cooling pump has to run for an hour as they spin down. Weighs the same as 5 fat blokes sitting aft. Needs 3kW to spool up and 1kW to run, so the genny has to run constantly. Is the hassle worth not feeling seasick... probably yes since it makes the difference between a nice day and a ruined day.

(BTW apologies to everyone for this thread going way OT)
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Yep, there's a trade off for having stabilisers, whichever option you go for. The pros and cons seem to be:

Gyro - good at anchor and low speeds, reduced effect at planing speeds. Long spool up/cool down period, extra weight, need approx 1 cu m of space, probably noisier.

Fins - good at all speeds, bigger loss of performance, more complex/expensive retro fit, risk to swimmers, possible sculling at anchor.

Either way, you have to run the genny the whole time.

I don't think the spool up and cool down period will be a big problem for us, we'll just get into the habit of turning it on as we leave port, and turning it off as we leave an anchorage, but then we haven't bought it for sea sickness reasons.

Do you suffer when underway, or just rolling about at anchor? If the latter, then I think a gyro is worth considering, although I wouldn't buy one without spending a day on a gyro equipped boat, to make sure it really does solve the problem for you.
 
MapisM said:
Actually, with fins the pump(s) can be (and normally is/are) engine(s) driven, hence not requiring the genset while under way.
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Ah right, i'd missed that.

Having said that, it seems to me nowadays that most boats over about 70 feet are expected to run the genny 24/7 when away from port?
 
At anchor gyros and fins are pretty similar in performance. Various differnces, but as an overall package they are similar

Underway gyros have substantial limitations that fins don't have. Fins are way way better at eliminating roll underway. Don't believe the market BS on gyro maker websites becuase they ignore laws of physics. (Stabs generally is a complex subject and easy for bamboozlers to practise their art, especially with gyros). When you've had fins underway and taken huge waves with the boat magically not rolling (the "magic carpet" feeling) you won't want ever to not have fins again. I think new stabiliser buyers tend to think, arguably mistakenly (though each to their own), that they only need at-anchor and that underway doesn't matter.

But, all that said, retrofitting fins can be massive, even too massive, a job. It depends on the boat. There will be many cases where gyro is the only sensible choice when retrofitting. Retrofitting fins generally gets easier as the boat gets bigger, and so I think for Balearick a gyro makes sense in a targa58 but if he gets say a Sq74/78 then fins make much more sense
 
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