ICC query

[ripvan1]

When we move to Spain shoreside next year and eventually take out residency, I'll want to get small boat for getting out on the water and am wondering how my ICC would be viewed in relation to being licensed to drive boat. Haven't decided on sail or power yet but it won't be anything too ambitious probably 6/8 m sail or up to 6m fishing boat. Hoping to get mooring in Mar Menor and join a club nautico (anyone here joined a club)

 

[sailorman]

Open wide & gulp this down

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...kets-for-foreign-yachts&p=5545432#post5545432

 

[ripvan1]

Sorry sailorman - don't see the relevancy - that link talks about regulations in force in one's own country of nationality - well there are no regulations in force in uk only competency tickets which are not a legal requirement. So I'm asking if the ICC would be acceptable proof of competence or as resident would I need to take all the Spanish tests.

 

[sailorman]

Are you changing residency, Post 51 seemed to answer it

 

[duncan99210]

As I understand it the situations is as follows. If your boat is UK flagged then the ICC will be enough to demonstrate competency (although there will be those who argue that you don't need any qualifications as UK law doesn't require them). If your boat is Spanish registered, the you will need to hold Spanish boating qualifications.

 

[ripvan1]

Are you changing residency, Post 51 seemed to answer it

Well, I haven't read the entire post you linked to but post 51 doesn't expain anything to me:-----

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Quote Originally Posted by sailorman

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1/ the boat is UK registered & part of England unlike yoyr car
2/ anybody can hire a boat in France with NO ICC
Sorry, but to enter pedant mode. A merchant vessel is registered in a country but is not part thereof. A warship is part of the country and as such requires things like diplomatic clearance to enter a foreign port. It is possible, in theory, for a person to attempt to claim asylum when picked up at sea by a warship but it cannot be done if the rescuer is a merchant vessel.

Best summed up...... when in Rome do as ..........


Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...-for-foreign-yachts/page6#5WAb96yBSfivF4Gv.99

 

[ripvan1]

As I understand it the situations is as follows. If your boat is UK flagged then the ICC will be enough to demonstrate competency (although there will be those who argue that you don't need any qualifications as UK law doesn't require them). If your boat is Spanish registered, the you will need to hold Spanish boating qualifications.

If and when I buy a Spanish registered boat, I can deregister and then register as UK boat and then my ICC is OK in Spain until I take out residency which I will not need to do until half way through 2017. I suppose then I will need to take the Spanish tests or is the International Certificate of Competence acceptable ?

 

[Tranona]

If and when I buy a Spanish registered boat, I can deregister and then register as UK boat and then my ICC is OK in Spain until I take out residency which I will not need to do until half way through 2017. I suppose then I will need to take the Spanish tests or is the International Certificate of Competence acceptable ?

Pretty sure your residency does not have any effect if your boat is UK registered. However you cannot use (legally) the SSR if you are no longer UK resident so it would need to be on the Part 1 register.

 

[wallacebob]

I have done a little research; hope to do similar in few years time. Mar Menor, as an inland water is very regulated - Lots of tourists and fishermen. I did my DS, then got ICC and CEVNI thro' RYA very easily. I understood that although an ICC is accepted in Spain, for Mar Menor it's best to go to Cartagena Port Captain, and get endorsement and acceptance. This shows that it is accepted by the authorities. Then when stopped, you have a Spanish document. Life is then easy! This org - SAMM - http://sailingmarmenor.com has some helpful info.
I think the "country of registration" is a red herring. Sometimes in Spain - as anywhere - the best path thro' officialdom is the well trod one.

 

[duncan99210]

When we were in Spain the situations was explained to me as follows.
If you are moving to Spain and intend to become resident there and you have a boat, you can declare that boat as part of your household goods without paying the matriculation tax (or whatever it's called these days). You can maintain the UK registry on that vessel and therefore retain the use of the ICC to sail it.
If you buy a Spanish flagged vessel and reflag it to UK (Part 1 if will no longer have a UK address, Part 3 if you do), the you can still use the ICC to provide your proof of competence.
If you buy a Spanish flagged vessel and retain the Spanish flag, then, as I understand it, you will need to obtain Spanish sailing qualifications. These are not directly equivalent to RYA tickets and you can't get a Spanish ticket on the strength of a UK one (as you can with a car licence).
So, have an ICC and a UK flagged boat or have a Spanish boat and get your Spanish qualifications.

 

[ripvan1]

Sometimes in Spain - as anywhere - the best path thro' officialdom is the well trod one.

I like that and thanks for the advice

So, have an ICC and a UK flagged boat or have a Spanish boat and get your Spanish qualifications

I was going to sell the boats here in UK but am seriously considering trailering the dell quay fisher boat down there on the strength of answers here and avoiding the botheration factor.

Next thing will be to see about mooring, club membership etc.

 

[Trident]

No one in Spain will ever want to see an ICC

If you buy a Spanish boat and take out residency and have a Spanish flagged boatyou will then need to do the Spanish exams (all theory - no practical and all in Spanish only)

Many Spaniards now have a UK or Dutch registered boat to avoid the exams as the skipper of such a boat does not need exams and they are almost never checked. In fact in 2 years in Spain we have only ever seen the Guardi board and check Spanish flagged boats. The easiest way would be to have your boat UK flagged and not worry about anything else

Remember that Spain "has many regulations but no actual rules"

I have a friend here who has imported a boat to Spain from the UK and is Spanish resident and owns a house and has been trying to pay the tax on the boat and be legal about it all for 5 years now and keeps being told by the local official not to bother as the boat isn't worth enough to worry (its maybe £20K) or "its too much paperwork so don't worry" ...

 

[ripvan1]

No one in Spain will ever want to see an ICC

If you buy a Spanish boat and take out residency and have a Spanish flagged boatyou will then need to do the Spanish exams (all theory - no practical and all in Spanish only)

Many Spaniards now have a UK or Dutch registered boat to avoid the exams as the skipper of such a boat does not need exams and they are almost never checked. In fact in 2 years in Spain we have only ever seen the Guardi board and check Spanish flagged boats. The easiest way would be to have your boat UK flagged and not worry about anything else

Remember that Spain "has many regulations but no actual rules"

I have a friend here who has imported a boat to Spain from the UK and is Spanish resident and owns a house and has been trying to pay the tax on the boat and be legal about it all for 5 years now and keeps being told by the local official not to bother as the boat isn't worth enough to worry (its maybe £20K) or "its too much paperwork so don't worry" ...

That' s great, just what I wanted to hear - a trailering we will go.

 

[Contest1]

I bought a UK registered Contest 29 for €12K in Alicante in June.
The previous owner has had her there since 2007, has no qualifications or radio licence. He is an English national who lives there full time and is a resident for tax etc.
He tells me he's never been checked and only Spanish flagged boats are ever bothered.

 

[jimbaerselman]

I bought a UK registered Contest 29 for €12K in Alicante in June.
The previous owner has had her there since 2007, has no qualifications or radio licence. He is an English national who lives there full time and is a resident for tax etc.
He tells me he's never been checked and only Spanish flagged boats are ever bothered.

He's a lucky man. There have been quite a lot of cases where people had become tax residents of Spain, and didn't realise they had to "import" their UK registered boats. There was a purge a few years ago, and they had to pay around 12% of their boat's valuation as a "pollution charge" - in addition to going through the process of importing the boat and obtaining local qualifications.

Many weren't weren't even aware they had become tax residents by spending more that 182 days there aver the tax year. The Scuttlebutt at the time was "keep below the radar and you'll be all right".

One live-aboard couple had made Spain their home without declaring the boat. It was "sealed" pending payment. I don't know the eventual outcome, but second hand I was told the boat had to be sold to pay taxes and port fees, leaving them homeless. End of a dream . . .

Staying below the radar and praying you won't be found out is a high risk venture.

 

[Sea Devil]

He's a lucky man. There have been quite a lot of cases where people had become tax residents of Spain, and didn't realise they had to "import" their UK registered boats. There was a purge a few years ago, and they had to pay around 12% of their boat's valuation as a "pollution charge" - in addition to going through the process of importing the boat and obtaining local qualifications.

Many weren't weren't even aware they had become tax residents by spending more that 182 days there aver the tax year. The Scuttlebutt at the time was "keep below the radar and you'll be all right".

One live-aboard couple had made Spain their home without declaring the boat. It was "sealed" pending payment. I don't know the eventual outcome, but second hand I was told the boat had to be sold to pay taxes and port fees, leaving them homeless. End of a dream . . .

Staying below the radar and praying you won't be found out is a high risk venture.

There is a choice - import the boat within 4 weeks of taking residency (need to use a professional - ( http://www.michaelbriant.com/boat_import.htm) - and not pay the 12% matriculation tax (also applied to motor cars) or import it later and pay the 12% tax.

The good news is that you can keep your boat UK flagged even with the Spanish importation certificate. The boat is now still a UK registered vessel.

As a UK registered vessel (part 1 probably because of the address requirements of SSR) you only have to conform to UK legislation re safety equipment and driving permits. As the UK does not require anybody to have a permit of any sort you don't need an ICC and the UK does not require you to have any safety equipment at all so you do not need to have any.

Pretty good!!

In France different rules apply to motor boats brought in on a road trailer towed behind a car. I am not sure but suspect the same rules in France apply in Spain...???

 

[jimbaerselman]

There is a choice - import the boat within 4 weeks of taking residency (need to use a professional - ( http://www.michaelbriant.com/boat_import.htm) - and not pay the 12% matriculation tax (also applied to motor cars) or import it later and pay the 12% tax.

The good news is that you can keep your boat UK flagged even with the Spanish importation certificate. The boat is now still a UK registered vessel.

As a UK registered vessel (part 1 probably because of the address requirements of SSR) you only have to conform to UK legislation re safety equipment and driving permits. As the UK does not require anybody to have a permit of any sort you don't need an ICC and the UK does not require you to have any safety equipment at all so you do not need to have any.

Pretty good!!

In France different rules apply to motor boats brought in on a road trailer towed behind a car. I am not sure but suspect the same rules in France apply in Spain...???

Yes, "temporary import" allows that you don't have to re-register the boat.

However, EU directives allow that a country may then treat the vessel as a locally registered boat - ie, all local regulations, taxes and operating procedures may then apply to the imported (but still foreign flagged) vessel.

I understood (perhaps wrongly) that Spain had adopted the whole directive into Spanish law. Whether that law was being enforced or not was an open question . . . anyone know the answer?

 

[Sea Devil]

Yes, "temporary import" allows that you don't have to re-register the boat.

However, EU directives allow that a country may then treat the vessel as a locally registered boat - ie, all local regulations, taxes and operating procedures may then apply to the imported (but still foreign flagged) vessel.

I understood (perhaps wrongly) that Spain had adopted the whole directive into Spanish law. Whether that law was being enforced or not was an open question . . . anyone know the answer?

Actually it is not 'temporary import' that I was describing. It is permanent import for a resident of Spain.

When you take up residency in Spain, there are 4 weeks of 'grace' during when you may import valuable licenced items boats, cars, planes etc without paying the matriculation tax. This is a permanent import FOC. After the 4 weeks of grace, like any other Spanish resident bringing in a valuable item, you must pay the 12% matriculation tax. In both cases however you really need to use a Gestoria or similar who knows his way around Spanish administrative.

I imported my boat, within the four weeks, without paying the 12% tax, when I first became a resident. My present boat is a British part 1 registered boat imported into Spain by a Spanish resident - me! If a Spanish person/resident buys my boat then the will not pay the tax and I have a certificate showing the matriculation tax paid. The boat is still British flagged and sails under the non existent British rules. I have had my papers checked several times by the Guardia Civil who have given me a a paper saying all my papers are in order! The Guardia Civil do regularly check boats papers on both Spanish and British flagged vessels - and all the other foreigners of course.

We had two cars and for various reasons only mine was in Spain during the important 4 week grace period. That one was imported FOC except for the fees to a Brit company who in fact used a Gestoria and just charged on top of that fee!

With some fear and trepidation I took the papers of Louise's car to my local Gestoria to discover that they had a reference for every make and model of car that exists (apparently!!) What was far more encouraging was that it listed the 'valuation' of the vehicle on which the 12% tax is paid. This valuation was very low indeed - far below the equivalent trade price. I understand that boat valuations are similarly artificially low.

 

[duncan99210]

Although things have moved on somewhat since we were based in Spain, we attended a presentation in Barcelona given by a Spanish law firm on this topic. It was aimed at the higher end of the market (values in excess €1m) so it was someth g that folks were concerned about.
One of the things that emerged is that, as Paw Paw mentions, the tax people have a listing of cars, boats etc giving indicative values. These values are heavily discounted for age, reducing to effectively zero value after about 15 years or so. It is in these values that the tax is levied. The lawyers also then killed things a little for the expensive end by saying that none production boats (ie the more expensive end of the market) would be valued by an independent surveyor for tax purposes.
All of that being said, we were never asked to show how long we had been in Spanish waters nor how long we as individuals had been in Spain. The question of registering for residency therefore never arose, nor did it for all of the other live aboard folks we knew. That, however, was a few years ago now, so things may have changed.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Actually it is not 'temporary import' that I was describing. It is permanent import for a resident of Spain.

.

Thanks Michael. Sounds as though Spain is being very lenient compared to the EU directive .

To keep the UK flag, was it necessary for the boat to spend a certain amount of time outside Spanish waters? ie, in Gibraltar - or where-ever?