I would like your honest opinion please?

[laika]

The best thing about the whole experience to be fair!

Apologies for asking this but … were you perhaps not enjoying the canal boat experience before the bruised leg and that was just the final straw?

This forum is mostly concerned with small sea-going sailing boats. Those are inherently hazardous places and most of us will have sustained non-trivial injuries at some point. I can’t imagine many of us abandoning a holiday for anything which did’t require hospitalisation. The time before last when I chartered in the med I managed to step backwards onto an open hatch and banged myself up pretty badly. I had to re-jig division of responsibilities between me and my crew for the next few days based on my decreased mobility but abandoning the boat didn’t occur to me.

Obviously we don’t know the details of the injury or even which of you sustained it but if you weren’t that far from base I can’t be the only one wondering why the able bodied one didn’t operate the single lock to get you back while the injured one drove unless you’d had enough for other reasons

 

[Bouba]

Just to add...everyone (including me) said call a friend...but when you hire a boat it only covers those on the original agreement

 

[ylop]

Just to add...everyone (including me) said call a friend...but when you hire a boat it only covers those on the original agreement

I think it is unlikely that any charter firm would have refused had she called them and said, "friend is injured so another friend is going to help me out, is that OK?". If they had, then the refund question might have been very different.

 

[Mark-1]

I think it is unlikely that any charter firm would have refused had she called them and said, "friend is injured so another friend is going to help me out, is that OK?". If they had, then the refund question might have been very different.

Agree. But, of course, the helper only needs to do the lock and lines, they don't need to set foot on the boat.

If the OP had waited near the lock we can be pretty confident a passing boat would have helped them through.

(To be fair this isn't what the OP was asking)

 

[D and G]

Sad to hear your holiday got cut short and hope the injured person is ok. In these days a bad online review can really have a bad effect on a business so if it was me I would have kept the hire fee but as a goodwill gesture returned the deposit.
We recently rented a narrowboat on the Thames, 2nd day into the holiday theb starter motor failed we called the owner he did not have a replacement so took us back to his base so we could pick up our car, as we had been really looking forward to the holiday we was gutted but he gave us a full refund that I thought was a nice gesture as we had burned 2 days worth of diesel plus his cost to collect us. Hope you get it sorted but I would want a detailed invoice of the cost from them. Just my 2p worth

 

[Seastoke]

Sad to hear your holiday got cut short and hope the injured person is ok. In these days a bad online review can really have a bad effect on a business so if it was me I would have kept the hire fee but as a goodwill gesture returned the deposit.
We recently rented a narrowboat on the Thames, 2nd day into the holiday theb starter motor failed we called the owner he did not have a replacement so took us back to his base so we could pick up our car, as we had been really looking forward to the holiday we was gutted but he gave us a full refund that I thought was a nice gesture as we had burned 2 days worth of diesel plus his cost to collect us. Hope you get it sorted but I would want a detailed invoice of the cost from them. Just my 2p worth

Take a spar break , don’t mean to sound rude.

 

[Tranona]

Sad to hear your holiday got cut short and hope the injured person is ok. In these days a bad online review can really have a bad effect on a business so if it was me I would have kept the hire fee but as a goodwill gesture returned the deposit.
We recently rented a narrowboat on the Thames, 2nd day into the holiday theb starter motor failed we called the owner he did not have a replacement so took us back to his base so we could pick up our car, as we had been really looking forward to the holiday we was gutted but he gave us a full refund that I thought was a nice gesture as we had burned 2 days worth of diesel plus his cost to collect us. Hope you get it sorted but I would want a detailed invoice of the cost from them. Just my 2p worth

"Goodwill" is a 2 way thing and we have only heard one side of the story - and the more heard the less likely that goodwill in the general sense was there.

 

[steveeasy]

In fairness, Even if keeping the deposit was unjustified few people ever hand anything back. Once they have your money they dont tend to give it up. In this situation they probably have some validity in claiming against the deposit, so have done so. They lost nothing and achieved what they set out to do. let the boat for a week.

Morally perhaps your deposit could perhaps been returned, but it would have been a good Gesture of goodwill. As for the feedback here. The comments may seam harsh, but I can assure you, you get what you ask for an unbiased truthful opinion.

Ive rented long boats a few times. good fun and was thinking of renting one next week. I find the attitude nowadays off putting though, like they are doing you a favour. Dont turn up early and must be gone by 9AM very rude. Most businesses dont hide the fact nowadays they dont like contact, just your cash.

Steveeasy

 

[AntarcticPilot]

We are told that the owner’s husband had to take a day off work to move the boat back to base. If he is a salaried employee he would need to be earning around £60k for a day (of leave) to be worth £250. If self-employed his day rate would have to be £250 to justify keeping the whole deposit. Neither seems unlikely. Leaving aside the state of relations between the parties, and the question of whether it could have been handled better, the owner may be justified in keeping the deposit.

I do freelance work at a rate of £40 an hour - that is, £320 for an 8 hour day. That's a fairly low rate for professional work; double that would not be unusual. I keep my rate low because I enjoy the work and it keeps my mind active (I'm retired). £250 for a day's work seems to me be on the low side; it's an hourly rate of £31.25, and lots of jobs attract an hourly rate greater than that. Of course, the equation with annual salary has to take into consideration that you only earn that rate for 5 days a week and about 47 weeks a year.

 

[steveeasy]

I do freelance work at a rate of £40 an hour - that is, £320 for an 8 hour day. That's a fairly low rate for professional work; double that would not be unusual. I keep my rate low because I enjoy the work and it keeps my mind active (I'm retired). £250 for a day's work seems to me be on the low side; it's an hourly rate of £31.25, and lots of jobs attract an hourly rate greater than that. Of course, the equation with annual salary has to take into consideration that you only earn that rate for 5 days a week and about 47 weeks a year.

£250 for a day's work seems to me be on the low side; it's an hourly rate of £31.25, and lots of jobs attract an hourly rate greater than that

Erm, I think a lot of people would disagree with that. The average hourly rate is around £14 per hour. Im not to sure it is relevant what the person who had to take a day off earnt or lost if any. What is relevant is a reasonable cost to recover the boat. Would not need to be a Yacht master but someone capable like the owner. I would think a nominal charge might be along the lines of £150 if that.
The facts are a deposit was taken and it seams the owner has set against that costs. These should really be broken down but perhaps not. The OP has not seemingly done too much wrong other than asking for assistance and not returning boat. She should write asking to specify what costs have been set against the deposit. bit of a waste of time though as any small amount is hardly worth pursuing.

 

[Tranona]

That is a pretty standard deposit designed to cover a number of things, but particularly the failure of the renter to return the boat to the location and at the time agreed and for any damage that is not covered by insurance. There is no tariff of deductions for specific costa arising from the failure to meet the terms of the contract. Not returning the boat is arguably the biggest item because there is both the actual cost of retrieving the boat and the opportunity cost of the potential effect on the next rental.

So not unreasonable to apply the total penalty. Nonsense to talk about the rate and apply a minimum hourly rate for a labourer. Again it is the opportunity cost which for a professional person or a business is of the order that is suggested in post#69. As an aside my daily rate in front of clients before I finally retired 12 years ago was £800. If the boatyard used one of its yard staff its chargeout rate would be in the range £40-50 an hour, So 4 hours is close to the £250 deposit. Add the cost of the owner to go and rescue the renter and it all comes into perspective. It is a business after all.

 

[ylop]

Erm, I think a lot of people would disagree with that. The average hourly rate is around £14 per hour.

the rate that someone gets paid is not the cost of employing them. At my marina basic Labour like pressure washing the hull is charged at £40 per hour. The guy doing the work is probably getting paid about £14. My company’s rule of thumb is that the cost of actually employing someone is about double their salary (employers NI, pensions, other benefits, sick-pay, management time, basic equipment like computers or uniforms etc) and our charge out rate is 3x so that there is potential for profit in there.

 

[steveeasy]

I wonder if we are in cloud cuckoo land here. Was it a boatyard or a marina or was it an individual running a business?. Either way, If the OP took the business to court over recovery of the deposit, the business would have to justify the amount they were deducting.

In this case the person holding the deposit used her husband if im correct. not an employee, we were discussing what he may HAVE lost. figures were mentioned regarding lost earnings and I pointed out the average wage in the UK is £14 per hour and not the min wage. If it was a business with tariffs for work they could use these.

Of course its a business activity and it is easy to see how the cost to collect the boat and return it could be in excess of the deposit amount, but one has to justify the amount not just keep the amount in total without some form of justification. That said anyone can do as they see fit and if someone feels it unreasonable they can challenge it. Not that it is worthwhile in any way here. The OP hired/rented the boat, it was not faulty and hence why they were not entitled to any refund. However nothing is ever black and white, and no business has an open ticket to charge what they want without notifying the customer in advance or justifying the amount they have charged.

Steveeasy

 

[Tranona]

I wonder if we are in cloud cuckoo land here. Was it a boatyard or a marina or was it an individual running a business?. Either way, If the OP took the business to court over recovery of the deposit, the business would have to justify the amount they were deducting.

In this case the person holding the deposit used her husband if im correct. not an employee, we were discussing what he may HAVE lost. figures were mentioned regarding lost earnings and I pointed out the average wage in the UK is £14 per hour and not the min wage. If it was a business with tariffs for work they could use these.

Of course its a business activity and it is easy to see how the cost to collect the boat and return it could be in excess of the deposit amount, but one has to justify the amount not just keep the amount in total without some form of justification. That said anyone can do as they see fit and if someone feels it unreasonable they can challenge it. Not that it is worthwhile in any way here. The OP hired/rented the boat, it was not faulty and hence why they were not entitled to any refund. However nothing is ever black and white, and no business has an open ticket to charge what they want without notifying the customer in advance or justifying the amount they have charged.

Steveeasy

If it went to court (highly unlikely for such a relatively trivial sum!) the business or even individual would not have to justify anything.

It is a simple matter of contract. The OP broke the terms of the contract by failing to return the boat as required and the contract gives the right to retain the deposit to defray costs. It is not an unfair term which is where there might be a need to justify the charges.

It is the OP who is in cloud cuckoo land in seemingly failing to understand the nature of the contract. They seem to think because the owner got "possession" of the boat after only one day the deposit should be returned, but the deposit is nothing to do with how long the hirer actually used the boat. They failed to return it as required and that incurred extra costs for the owner - exactly what the deposit is for.

 

[steveeasy]

it is unreasonable to just keep a deposit without setting out why. We don’t know that did not happen.
Steveeasy

 

[Bouba]

Holiday companies rely on good relations to ensure customers come back and tell their friends...but they will also be acutely sensitive to customers with a bad attitude...where no amount of discounts or refunds will encourage repeat business...so they cut their losses and get them out the door. I think the OP needs to re-remember what his attitude was like on his initial phone call and when the proprietor rescued them...did he give her any hope that he would rebook?
I am not having a go at the OP...believe me, no one is more caustic in these situations than me...but losing deposits can be the price of venting your spleen...but sometimes it’s worth it

 

[ylop]

it is unreasonable to just keep a deposit without setting out why. We don’t know that did not happen.
Steveeasy

They did! You are right that retaining the whole £250 deposit would likely be looked on dimly by the courts IF the damage done / loss incurred was so deminimis that you couldn’t possibly justify the fee - eg you break a cheap £1.50 ikea wine glass; but I don’t think there’s actually a need to show that £250 left their bank account as a direct result of the boat being left in the wrong place, any court would likely accept that a skipper had to be employed (and potentially crew too) as well as travel costs and time, anyone arguing this could be done for a small fraction of the £250 is deluded.

 

[Tranona]

it is unreasonable to just keep a deposit without setting out why. We don’t know that did not happen.
Steveeasy

They did set out why. The husband took a day off work to retrieve the boat. If it was a normal hire company (we don't know the exact setup). Then 2 staff - one to drive the skipper to the boat and work the lock then drive back to the yard. The other to take the boat the 5 miles back to the yard. 2 staff for 4 hours @ £40 an hour is £320.

It is not the marginal cost (wages) but the opportunity cost - that is the income those 2 people would be earning for the business were they not retrieving the boat.

I know the husband did the job, but that does not change the principle. Retaining the deposit was what the contract said and the amount of deosit is reasonable in relation to the costs incurred to retrieve the boat

 

[steveeasy]

Well I don’t think any of us see things to differently. What we all don’t know is what the contract said. How the op acted. Indeed how the business acted and indeed if any explanation was given regarding the deposit. We are all making assumptions based as you say on information from one side only.

The Op has not really given me the impression she was difficult just in an ideal world thought she might get her deposite back.

If she had been given a breakdown of the money set against the deposit she or he would have probably not come on here and would have given us the breakdown I suspect.
Steveeasy

 

[Tomaret]

I do freelance work at a rate of £40 an hour - that is, £320 for an 8 hour day. That's a fairly low rate for professional work; double that would not be unusual. I keep my rate low because I enjoy the work and it keeps my mind active (I'm retired). £250 for a day's work seems to me be on the low side; it's an hourly rate of £31.25, and lots of jobs attract an hourly rate greater than that. Of course, the equation with annual salary has to take into consideration that you only earn that rate for 5 days a week and about 47 weeks a year.

I was working on the basis that our plumber, electrician and carpenter all charge £250 a day in Shropshire. Had I been writing two years ago from the South East it would have been considerably more