oldfrank
Well-Known Member
I'd go for it and get a cockpit cover made. The sheathing is a risk but I think I'd take that risk. OF
I NEED EXPERT ADVICE on wooden sailing boat!
- Thread starter udo
- Start date
udo
Member
Just to let everybody know. We had today an inspection from the inside of the boat by the surveyor.
He found no rot at all on the inside. The previous time I dried the bilge completely, but we did see more water back in again. So we suspect some water coming in from in between the wooden hull and keel via the keel bolts. It was so minor, that the surveyor did not see this as a problem.
By looking at the gabs between the planks in the hull above the waterline, which allow water to come through during sailing (not much but still al little bit, he suspected that this could be the reason why the previous owner had put fibre glass sheeting on the hull under the waterline.
Overall from what was possible to see on the inside, he recommended me not to do too much work on the boat, only the things which needs to be done urgently (and that are only a few small items) and just start having fun with it.
We will have a check on the outside of the hull probably this coming weekend.
Udo
He found no rot at all on the inside. The previous time I dried the bilge completely, but we did see more water back in again. So we suspect some water coming in from in between the wooden hull and keel via the keel bolts. It was so minor, that the surveyor did not see this as a problem.
By looking at the gabs between the planks in the hull above the waterline, which allow water to come through during sailing (not much but still al little bit, he suspected that this could be the reason why the previous owner had put fibre glass sheeting on the hull under the waterline.
Overall from what was possible to see on the inside, he recommended me not to do too much work on the boat, only the things which needs to be done urgently (and that are only a few small items) and just start having fun with it.
We will have a check on the outside of the hull probably this coming weekend.
Udo
udo
Member
Got here a message from another expert who does not seem to be very enthusiastic about this boat (he did not see it, but just replied to my observations)
Udo, you'll find a reoccurring theme among experienced wooden boat owners, here and the other places you've posted.
Again, regardless of what your surveyor is telling you (he may be giving you just what he's being paid to give you) if the boat shows gaps and light at her seams, she's in need of repairs, recaulking at the very least, probably considerably more (refastening, planking replacement, etc.)
In the end, as I and others have mentioned, the bottom of the hull is 'glassed over for a reason, which 99% of the time is to stave off the proper repairs it needs. The topside planking is showing you what it needs, the bottom is very likely in similar condition, except it has a plastic skin hiding it for the time being.
In short, carvel planking is a consumable item, just like an automotive oil filter, it wears out and needs to be replaced. During the life of planking, they may be repaired, refastened, recaulked, but eventually the planking is just shot. The garboards are most always the first to go, followed by the broads. Butt blocks and scarfs start to pop open and it's an ever accelerating, downward spiral after a time. When the planking gets to this stage in it's life, this is when some owners decide to 'glass the hull.
Udo, you'll find a reoccurring theme among experienced wooden boat owners, here and the other places you've posted.
Again, regardless of what your surveyor is telling you (he may be giving you just what he's being paid to give you) if the boat shows gaps and light at her seams, she's in need of repairs, recaulking at the very least, probably considerably more (refastening, planking replacement, etc.)
In the end, as I and others have mentioned, the bottom of the hull is 'glassed over for a reason, which 99% of the time is to stave off the proper repairs it needs. The topside planking is showing you what it needs, the bottom is very likely in similar condition, except it has a plastic skin hiding it for the time being.
In short, carvel planking is a consumable item, just like an automotive oil filter, it wears out and needs to be replaced. During the life of planking, they may be repaired, refastened, recaulked, but eventually the planking is just shot. The garboards are most always the first to go, followed by the broads. Butt blocks and scarfs start to pop open and it's an ever accelerating, downward spiral after a time. When the planking gets to this stage in it's life, this is when some owners decide to 'glass the hull.
Lakesailor
Well-Known Member
I can see his thinking, but (even though I am suspicious about the sheathing) it appears to have been put on when the boat was middle-aged. Is 35 years a problem in cold waters? The surveyor says the planking seems OK from the inside. It's otherwise a lovely looking boat.
In your shoes I would risk the money and hope it's a good investment.
If work is needed over the winter, fair enough.
In your shoes I would risk the money and hope it's a good investment.
If work is needed over the winter, fair enough.
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udo
Member
Hi Lakesailor,
My surveyor who did see the boat said after knocking the hull on many places inside: The be sure, we need to check also the outside by taking the boat out of the water, but he said also; the wood is just 100%, no rot. His concern left over is if the sheeting is coming off on the outside or not. if yes, it's something one can repair, but of course has to be repaired. Therefore he adviced me to offer a slightly lower price so I can pay for the inspections and a few repairs, start sailing, enjoy it, do for now as little as possible and decide in 1 or 2 years if I want to do a major job on it.
Cheers,
udo
My surveyor who did see the boat said after knocking the hull on many places inside: The be sure, we need to check also the outside by taking the boat out of the water, but he said also; the wood is just 100%, no rot. His concern left over is if the sheeting is coming off on the outside or not. if yes, it's something one can repair, but of course has to be repaired. Therefore he adviced me to offer a slightly lower price so I can pay for the inspections and a few repairs, start sailing, enjoy it, do for now as little as possible and decide in 1 or 2 years if I want to do a major job on it.
Cheers,
udo
udo
Member
The surveyor told me that we need, in order to get a full picture of the boat, take it out of the water.
I decided to buy the boat, but of course on the condition that the boat is described as per the advertisement.
Description of the boat in the advert:
The boat is completely dry (from underneath) because of the fibre glass sheeting.
The owner told me verbally:
Only water coming in via the hull above the waterline and rain water via the cockpit
However, I found out that water is coming from underneath as well, probably from in between the keel and the wooden hull via the keel bolts.* This should in principle not have to be a problem, but we MUST find out if the plastic fibre glass epoxy sheeting is actually OK, and sticking well to the wooden hull.
If I find out any more (big) problems (not mentioned by the owner) when the boat is out of the water, I definitely would re-consider.
The owner asked me if I want to get the boat out of the water for to evaluate what work needs to be done, or, if it's for to re-consider buying it at all. If it's for re-consideration, he told me that he was going to put it back on the market. btw: The advert was never taken away in the first place, I spend a lot of time to inspect to boat several times and spend money on the surveyor, the pressure on top of it makes me extremely uncomfortable.
So, I am close to walking away.
I decided to buy the boat, but of course on the condition that the boat is described as per the advertisement.
Description of the boat in the advert:
The boat is completely dry (from underneath) because of the fibre glass sheeting.
The owner told me verbally:
Only water coming in via the hull above the waterline and rain water via the cockpit
However, I found out that water is coming from underneath as well, probably from in between the keel and the wooden hull via the keel bolts.* This should in principle not have to be a problem, but we MUST find out if the plastic fibre glass epoxy sheeting is actually OK, and sticking well to the wooden hull.
If I find out any more (big) problems (not mentioned by the owner) when the boat is out of the water, I definitely would re-consider.
The owner asked me if I want to get the boat out of the water for to evaluate what work needs to be done, or, if it's for to re-consider buying it at all. If it's for re-consideration, he told me that he was going to put it back on the market. btw: The advert was never taken away in the first place, I spend a lot of time to inspect to boat several times and spend money on the surveyor, the pressure on top of it makes me extremely uncomfortable.
So, I am close to walking away.
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andygc
Well-Known Member
I just came across this thread and noticed all the "go for it" comments. Yes, it is a pretty boat. It is also a 50-year-old boat with water coming through the topside planking seams even when the boat has been in the water for the season, and through the bottom somewhere. It has been epoxied on the outside only and below the waterline only.
In common parlance, it's knackered.
As the owner of a 64-year-old 27-footer I can point out that she needed a major rebuild after about 25 years of hard use (offshore racing in the 1950s), and has needed 8 frames repaired, minor planking repairs and a partial stem rebuild in the 10 years I have had her.
The yard I use also had in a carvel-built leaker of about 26 feet, somewhat older. The advice was that to build a new one might well be cheaper. The owner insisted, so all of the fastenings were replaced and the gaps between the planks (the timber was in good heart) filled with glued splines. The hull was then epoxied - but inside and out and above and below the waterline to make it as near as possible waterproof.
Buying a leaky wooden boat that has a plastic hull cover below the waterline seems to me about as sensible as standing in a shower tearing up bundles of £50 notes. The plastic outer hull will have to come off to sort out the planking and its slack nails.
It's a very pretty boat and could make a great restoration project for an owner with deep pockets, or good boatwright skills and plenty of time.
In common parlance, it's knackered.
As the owner of a 64-year-old 27-footer I can point out that she needed a major rebuild after about 25 years of hard use (offshore racing in the 1950s), and has needed 8 frames repaired, minor planking repairs and a partial stem rebuild in the 10 years I have had her.
The yard I use also had in a carvel-built leaker of about 26 feet, somewhat older. The advice was that to build a new one might well be cheaper. The owner insisted, so all of the fastenings were replaced and the gaps between the planks (the timber was in good heart) filled with glued splines. The hull was then epoxied - but inside and out and above and below the waterline to make it as near as possible waterproof.
Buying a leaky wooden boat that has a plastic hull cover below the waterline seems to me about as sensible as standing in a shower tearing up bundles of £50 notes. The plastic outer hull will have to come off to sort out the planking and its slack nails.
It's a very pretty boat and could make a great restoration project for an owner with deep pockets, or good boatwright skills and plenty of time.
udo
Member
You put into words, what I am actually afraid of what might be the actual reality of the boat.
Thanks,
Udo
Tranona
Well-Known Member
That is a very gloomy observation! How can you believe anybody who has not seen the boat, just because he has seen other boats!
I know I have not seen your boat, but I do know a thing or two about epoxy sheathing. If it has been on for 15 years then it must have been done properly. The drawings of the boat show a very strong construction so the structure is probably stable. The only downside to partial sheathing is that it makes the lower half of the hull rigid and the top still flexible, which is why you may still get movement of the planks on the topsides. I can't see whether they are conventional seams, but probably local re-caulking and re-finishing would solve the leaks there. You will need to watch the top edge of the sheathing to makes sure it is s sound so that water does not get behind it. Otherwise, I see this boat as needing far less work than an unsheathed boat as you only have to worry about the bits above the waterline. Get that cockpit cover made to keep rainwater out and enjoy using the boat.
I know I have not seen your boat, but I do know a thing or two about epoxy sheathing. If it has been on for 15 years then it must have been done properly. The drawings of the boat show a very strong construction so the structure is probably stable. The only downside to partial sheathing is that it makes the lower half of the hull rigid and the top still flexible, which is why you may still get movement of the planks on the topsides. I can't see whether they are conventional seams, but probably local re-caulking and re-finishing would solve the leaks there. You will need to watch the top edge of the sheathing to makes sure it is s sound so that water does not get behind it. Otherwise, I see this boat as needing far less work than an unsheathed boat as you only have to worry about the bits above the waterline. Get that cockpit cover made to keep rainwater out and enjoy using the boat.
udo
Member
Hi Tarona,
I just have to be able to see the boat underneath when it is out of the water, but if the owner is forcing me to make my decision before that, I start to get rather uncomfortable.
Plastic sheeting can be good and helpful, but could potentially also cause problems. Even if the price is good, the hull needs to be good enough to justify spending a lot of work and time on it.
Just have to find out,
I just have to be able to see the boat underneath when it is out of the water, but if the owner is forcing me to make my decision before that, I start to get rather uncomfortable.
Plastic sheeting can be good and helpful, but could potentially also cause problems. Even if the price is good, the hull needs to be good enough to justify spending a lot of work and time on it.
Just have to find out,
ColdFusion
Well-Known Member
I'd say go ahead with the lift out "to evaluate what work needs to be done". You can always re-consider/walk away afterwards if you find more work needs doing than you had envisaged.
On the other hand, if the owner is playing hard ball and you're feeling "extremely uncomfortable" then go with your gut feeling and walk away. There are lots of other boats for sale out there. But it may just be that the owner is a poor negotiator and has no idea how he's made you feel. Equally, he may be feeling that you're wasting his time...
Only you can decide. No one here can do it for you. Good luck, and let us know how you get on.
dur
Well-Known Member
It's such a pretty boat and for a good price that it has to be worth a lift out and hull survey - even if you do the latter yourself. If you find a bit that sounds dead when you tap it then you have a more difficult decision. If it all sounds solid you'll probably be ok for a good while yet.
Good luck!!
Good luck!!
udo
Member
OK, what we did find out is:
1.* From the inside NO woodrot at all.
2.* Planks fittings to the rib's are also really OK
3. Inspection on the outside not done yet.
4.* But, to get the hull above the waterline also water tight, it looks like that corking will not be sufficient and the seems need to be cut open with a saw and pieces of spline wood needs to be glued in.** That will be a massive job for sure.
Question:* Will the life-span of the boat be influenced a lot if we always get some water in via the hull above the waterline, or will it be only inconvenient?
(This of course under the condition that my surveyor is not finding any other major problems on the outside of the hull and the boat is really healthy on all major points)
That's one of the very last questions I guess (and hope)
Udo
1.* From the inside NO woodrot at all.
2.* Planks fittings to the rib's are also really OK
3. Inspection on the outside not done yet.
4.* But, to get the hull above the waterline also water tight, it looks like that corking will not be sufficient and the seems need to be cut open with a saw and pieces of spline wood needs to be glued in.** That will be a massive job for sure.
Question:* Will the life-span of the boat be influenced a lot if we always get some water in via the hull above the waterline, or will it be only inconvenient?
(This of course under the condition that my surveyor is not finding any other major problems on the outside of the hull and the boat is really healthy on all major points)
That's one of the very last questions I guess (and hope)
Udo
andygc
Well-Known Member
Likewise, how can you believe somebody who has seen the same photographs and commented
?
The photographs of the boat do not show a very strong construction. They show a pretty ordinary construction with somewhat widely-spaced, bent frames with additional (sawn?) frames which carry steel plates which look to be in line with the chainplates. To be "very strong" the frames would need to be closer together, it would help to have a couple of laminated frames at each end of the saloon and some decent-sized floors under the cockpit. However, the construction should be adequate.
I'm making an observation based on my own experience of carvel-planked yachts, one of which I rebuilt (albeit a long time ago and she was very lightly built), and in light of discussions I have had with boatwrights with many years of experience of building wooden boats.
I would be very cautious over taking on a partially-sheathed yacht, and would look at it as either something to sail until it falls apart, or as a major restoration project. If a carvel yacht has been sheathed, there's something wrong with it. A sound carvel hull may leak like a sieve on launching after the winter, but it should stop leaking after 48 hours. If it isn't leaking, why sheathe it?
Ultimately it's up to udo - he asked for advice, and he has got it from various sources, and with some disagreement. I'm not telling him not to buy it, I'm advising him that I probably wouldn't, and why.
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udo
Member
Your advice, like from all the others is much appreciated!! Really value the time everybody is spending on all forums. In such a short time, I got so much more knowledge. of course, in the end, I have to make the decision myself and hope this tread my help any other potential buyers as well.
Thanks again,
Udo
stav
Well-Known Member
If I was buying such a lovely thing I would hammer the complete underwater hull at no more than six inch spacing and listen for dull sounds. This would indicate delaminating of the covering or some rotten wood. Even then not so serious. I would take the covering off locally to the repair and then replace. I would also want to check if it is epoxy glass sheathing or cascover. I would be happier with cascover as it has some flex (so I understand). If it is epxoy/glass why? But then if there are so many unmarked rocks in the Baltic may be this is a good thing?
Good luck with it.
Good luck with it.
udo
Member
History of the boat:
Swedish Design and Build, but for some reason it ended up in the UK.
A Swedish guy (father of the present owners) bought it and
It's 100% sure a glass fibre epoxy sheeting, applied by a ship yard in the United Kingdom, after which it was transported on the road! to Sweden and stayed ever since in the Stockholm Archipelo.
Yes, lots of rocks here! The coast line of the rocks, it's called!
Udo
udo
Member
I guess, the post from the super moderator from http://www.sailnet.com is the last drop which makes my bucket flow over (is what we say in Dutch)
Very well written, therefore, I think, it might be nice for people on other forums (like this one) to read this very well written post.
Here it is:
I would say, RUN, don't walk the other way from this boat. Having owned and restored a number of wooden boats, this sounds like the perfect formula for disaster. To understand this you need to understand how wooden boats work.
Wooden boat construction varies very widely, but when you talk about a small, carvel planked yacht, they were designed to work in specific ways and have a specific lifespan and maintenance cycle. When wooden boats were common, pretty extensive long term maintenance was anticipated. This typically included recaulking, and refastening. On a small yacht, you could only do so many recaulks and refastenings before the boat needed to be replanked and perhaps reframed. That was the norm and not the exception.
You need to understand that caulking does a lot more than just keep the water out. It creates a longitundinal sheer connection between the planking that serves to help the boat act as a whole rather than as separate planks and frames. Without tight caulking the boat works (parts moving independently) more than the construction was designed to absorb and so eventually the fastenings work loose as well. At that point the structural integrity of the boat is pretty well shot.
When a boat gets bad enough to be glassed over, typically it is delaying action rather than a permanent fix. While strip-planking, cold-molded, ashcroft and double-planking will accept a glass skin reasonably well, usually carvel does not do well over time. There are very few proper ways to glass a carvel hull and even these will result in a limited lifespan.
Generally, if glassing a boat is going to succeed over the long period of time, the boat needs to be very dry when the work is done. Planks need to be properly fastened and stripped of all paints and sealers inside and out. Keel bolts should be replaced and all rot removed from the boat. The seams need to be raked clean. The planking is then saturated with epoxy inside and out. This is intended to seal and stabilize the wood to prevent swelling and shrinking. (more on that later)
There are several theories on how to close the seams. Some recommend softwood wedges while other recommend a soft adhesive sealant. Once the seams are sealed then the outside of the hull is glassed with epoxy and minimally several laminations of glass. This membrane needs to be continuous from the rail around the keel.
When the membrane is discontinuous and the interior of the planking is not sealed the planking will swell and shrink depending on its moisture content. As it does water and air can get into crevices and cause rot. This rot occurs in the portions of the framing that is not exposed to drying which means that the face of the planking seen from the interior can look and feel perfectly sound while the face of the planking in the seams and against the glass can break down. Additionally swelling and skrinking can exert heavy forces on the connection between the glass and the wood and deteriorate the bond reducing the strength of the system further. Lastly, if the planking is allowed to swell and shrink, while being restrained by the glass skin, the fastenings will be stressed reducing the strength of the connections between the planking and frames.
One piece of the puzzle is that this boat looks pretty heavily constructed so there is a chance that there is adequate frames that you might excape refaming.
Over the years I have watched a number of boats chainsawed due to these kinds of issues and to a great extent, this could easily be a zombie boat, its dead but it just does not know it. That said, if you were willing and able to properly restore it (replank, reframe, refasten and recaulk) this would be an interesting piece of history to own.
Respectfully,
Very well written, therefore, I think, it might be nice for people on other forums (like this one) to read this very well written post.
Here it is:
I would say, RUN, don't walk the other way from this boat. Having owned and restored a number of wooden boats, this sounds like the perfect formula for disaster. To understand this you need to understand how wooden boats work.
Wooden boat construction varies very widely, but when you talk about a small, carvel planked yacht, they were designed to work in specific ways and have a specific lifespan and maintenance cycle. When wooden boats were common, pretty extensive long term maintenance was anticipated. This typically included recaulking, and refastening. On a small yacht, you could only do so many recaulks and refastenings before the boat needed to be replanked and perhaps reframed. That was the norm and not the exception.
You need to understand that caulking does a lot more than just keep the water out. It creates a longitundinal sheer connection between the planking that serves to help the boat act as a whole rather than as separate planks and frames. Without tight caulking the boat works (parts moving independently) more than the construction was designed to absorb and so eventually the fastenings work loose as well. At that point the structural integrity of the boat is pretty well shot.
When a boat gets bad enough to be glassed over, typically it is delaying action rather than a permanent fix. While strip-planking, cold-molded, ashcroft and double-planking will accept a glass skin reasonably well, usually carvel does not do well over time. There are very few proper ways to glass a carvel hull and even these will result in a limited lifespan.
Generally, if glassing a boat is going to succeed over the long period of time, the boat needs to be very dry when the work is done. Planks need to be properly fastened and stripped of all paints and sealers inside and out. Keel bolts should be replaced and all rot removed from the boat. The seams need to be raked clean. The planking is then saturated with epoxy inside and out. This is intended to seal and stabilize the wood to prevent swelling and shrinking. (more on that later)
There are several theories on how to close the seams. Some recommend softwood wedges while other recommend a soft adhesive sealant. Once the seams are sealed then the outside of the hull is glassed with epoxy and minimally several laminations of glass. This membrane needs to be continuous from the rail around the keel.
When the membrane is discontinuous and the interior of the planking is not sealed the planking will swell and shrink depending on its moisture content. As it does water and air can get into crevices and cause rot. This rot occurs in the portions of the framing that is not exposed to drying which means that the face of the planking seen from the interior can look and feel perfectly sound while the face of the planking in the seams and against the glass can break down. Additionally swelling and skrinking can exert heavy forces on the connection between the glass and the wood and deteriorate the bond reducing the strength of the system further. Lastly, if the planking is allowed to swell and shrink, while being restrained by the glass skin, the fastenings will be stressed reducing the strength of the connections between the planking and frames.
One piece of the puzzle is that this boat looks pretty heavily constructed so there is a chance that there is adequate frames that you might excape refaming.
Over the years I have watched a number of boats chainsawed due to these kinds of issues and to a great extent, this could easily be a zombie boat, its dead but it just does not know it. That said, if you were willing and able to properly restore it (replank, reframe, refasten and recaulk) this would be an interesting piece of history to own.
Respectfully,
udo
Member
I would like to thank everyone for contributing to this thread!
It's great to hear all opinions and I learned a lot in a very short time.
After listening to all opinions + having an expert on site, I decided the risk is too high and therefore, with regret, notified the seller that I am not going to buy it.
Best regards to all of you,
Udo
It's great to hear all opinions and I learned a lot in a very short time.
After listening to all opinions + having an expert on site, I decided the risk is too high and therefore, with regret, notified the seller that I am not going to buy it.
Best regards to all of you,
Udo
Tranona
Well-Known Member
How depressing to read such a narrow and "purist" viewpoint on owning a wooden boat - as if nothing has been learned and no new materials and techniques have any value. Boatyards are full of decaying boats (or used to be) for two reasons.
Firstly, despite what rose tinted spectacles may say, most affordable wooden boats were cheaply and badly built and were never expected to have long lives. Even the so-called quality boats do not last as the major recent "rebuilds" have shown. They were just the best that could be done with the materials then available.
Secondly, boats go through cycles and owing to the basic inherent material and construction shortcomings, relatively short periods of lack of care and they deteriorate rapidly.
Boats like the one you were looking at are designed and built to give ordinary folk pleasure as sailing boats. They are not national treasures to be preserved in aspic. Seems to me the previous owners have taken a pragmatic view and used modern materials and techniques to keep it in usable condition. Bet there are not many 50 year old wooden yachts that have been in continuous use where a surveyor is unable to find any significant rot!
Unless there is something glaring I have missed, 4000 euros seems an absolute bargain for a boat with that capability which with reasonable care (but not necessarily the services of an old school shipwright) will give good service for many years to come.
I can understand your reluctance to take it on given some of the "advice" you have received here, but I am sure for somebody who has an enlightened and pragmatic approach to old boat ownership and usage will appreciate it.
Firstly, despite what rose tinted spectacles may say, most affordable wooden boats were cheaply and badly built and were never expected to have long lives. Even the so-called quality boats do not last as the major recent "rebuilds" have shown. They were just the best that could be done with the materials then available.
Secondly, boats go through cycles and owing to the basic inherent material and construction shortcomings, relatively short periods of lack of care and they deteriorate rapidly.
Boats like the one you were looking at are designed and built to give ordinary folk pleasure as sailing boats. They are not national treasures to be preserved in aspic. Seems to me the previous owners have taken a pragmatic view and used modern materials and techniques to keep it in usable condition. Bet there are not many 50 year old wooden yachts that have been in continuous use where a surveyor is unable to find any significant rot!
Unless there is something glaring I have missed, 4000 euros seems an absolute bargain for a boat with that capability which with reasonable care (but not necessarily the services of an old school shipwright) will give good service for many years to come.
I can understand your reluctance to take it on given some of the "advice" you have received here, but I am sure for somebody who has an enlightened and pragmatic approach to old boat ownership and usage will appreciate it.
Other threads that may be of interest
