I 'm not sure that I understand rule 17

[wotayottie]

Last week we caught up and became overlapped with another boat, both of us with mains boomed out to starboard and spinnakers flying. We were on his port side. He started veering towards us demanding that we kept clear. Both of us were well away from the mark or any obstruction.

Now as I understand it we were the windward boat as in " However, when sailing by the lee or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail lies. The other side is her windward side. When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat"

But when rule 17 says"If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course""clear astern" .

As I read it that means that we shouldnt sail above our proper course which we didnt but there was no obligation on him.

Correct?

 

[flaming]

Rule 17 has nothing to do with that situation.

You came from clear astern and became overlapped to windward of him. Under this circumstance he could take you up all the way to head to wind if he so chose and gave you room to keep clear as he did so.

Rule 17 would have applied if you had gone the other side of him and become overlapped to windward. In that circumstance you would have been constrained by 17 to sailing no higher than your proper course. Which is the course you would have sailed had the other boat not been there.

 

[lpdsn]

As I read it that means that we shouldnt sail above our proper course which we didnt but there was no obligation on him.

Correct?

You became overlapped to windward of him. You're the keep clear boat. In open water there's no obligation on him*. Your only chance is the hope that he feels if he luffs you to Kingdom Come it might damage his chances against the rest of the fleet.

Proper course isn't relevant.

If you want to establish an overlap to windward do so far enough away that it is impractical for him to luff you.

* He's acquired right of way by your actions so only has to give you room to keep clear if he changes course.

 

[wotayottie]

I think you are both saying what I said, namely that we were the windward boat, and he was in his rights to push us to port.

 

[lpdsn]

I think you are both saying what I said, namely that we were the windward boat, and he was in his rights to push us to port.

Yes. Although if you give yourself enough room to gybe quickly then you only have to give him room to keep clear once you establish rights.

One boat I was on used to practice no-pole gybes (you need a big bloke to push out the guy and it only works when on a run or close to it) which was handy to do a quick flick onto starboard to get rights then back onto port to head on to the mark, which if done right often meant being far enough ahead that it would be difficult for the other boat to successfully luff us. Also very vulnerable if you get luffed with no pole, but the helm had used the technique on multiple boats and I never saw him get into a position where he was caught out.

 

[wotayottie]

Can I take this a bit further. As normal we were racing round the channel markers and our start line was between a point on shore and a channel marker 1 mile away. And it was a downwind start. We started near the channel marker. He started near the shore. Both were near enough on a dead run with symmetrical spinnakers and we gradually came closer together as we approached the first mark about 2 miles down wind..

So what happens if its unclear, as in honesty it was, whether any boat had overtaken the other, or whether they had just come gradually together. I guess we then go to the windward leeward debate.

But we could easily both have had booms on opposite sides making us both the windward boat or the leeward boat. WEE could both have each other to windward according to RRS. What then?

 

[lpdsn]

That's quite simple. Starboard trumps port, so the windward leeward situation only applies if you're on the same tack.

Proper course only comes into it if the right of way boat establishes the overlap from astern within two boat lengths to leeward and remains within two boat lengths to leeward. Otherwise the leeward boat has full luffing rights. In your scenario, although it is unclear exactly how the overlap was established it is clear that it wasn't established in a way that restricts the leeward boat's luffing rights.

Hence my comment about the ability to gybe quickly onto starboard. Once you've done that the whole windward/leeward/proper course debate goes out of the window. When you gybe back onto port a completely new windward/leeward situation applies (assuming they're still on port) and the earlier w/l situation is still completely irrelevant.

 

[flaming]

I think you are both saying what I said, namely that we were the windward boat, and he was in his rights to push us to port.

Yes, but you also said

"As I read it that means that we shouldnt sail above our proper course which we didnt but there was no obligation on him."

Which is incorrect, as there was nothing to stop you from sailing above your proper course as rule 17 does not apply.

 

[flaming]

Can I take this a bit further. As normal we were racing round the channel markers and our start line was between a point on shore and a channel marker 1 mile away. And it was a downwind start. We started near the channel marker. He started near the shore. Both were near enough on a dead run with symmetrical spinnakers and we gradually came closer together as we approached the first mark about 2 miles down wind..

So what happens if its unclear, as in honesty it was, whether any boat had overtaken the other, or whether they had just come gradually together. I guess we then go to the windward leeward debate.

But we could easily both have had booms on opposite sides making us both the windward boat or the leeward boat. WEE could both have each other to windward according to RRS. What then?

lpdsn has this right.

If your booms are on opposite sides then you are port and starboard, and in open water (i.e. not near a mark or obstruction) this is all you need to know. Note this also applies with 2 boats running downwind where Starboard is directly behind port. Though port would have to be very dumb to get caught like that....

If your booms are on the same side, then 1st, are you overlapped? If you are not then the boat clear ahead is the ROW boat. If you are then the leeward boat is the ROW boat. This is always the case.

Where 17 gets involved is if the leeward boat has established her overlap within 2 boatlengths of the other boat. If she has then she is still ROW boat. That is very important to note. Windward boat must still keep clear. However, Leeward is now constrained to sailing no higher than her proper course. She can sail as low as she likes though.

If the overlap exists because windward was the one who established the overlap from clear astern, then leeward is perfectly entitled to luff her head to wind, providing she gives her room to keep clear whilst she does.

In reality, beneath all this legalish language is a simple concept.

You are not allowed to come from behind and then luff.

 

[wotayottie]

thanks

 

[Foolish Muse]

One boat I was on used to practice no-pole gybes (you need a big bloke to push out the guy and it only works when on a run or close to it)

Gybing without the pole is something that I do, singlehanded, virtually every time I go sailing. I did it just yesterday as a matter of fact. You don't need a "big bloke to push out the guy." All you need to do is pull down the tweaker lines to get firm control. Start by sailing deep. Then ease the sheet until the corner of the spinnaker is just 3' from the forestay. Then swing the boat over to the new direction and swing the boom over at the same time. It just takes a bit of practice to get this down and in just two seconds you move from being the windward boat to becoming the starboard boat. I've done this in racing and it shocks the heck out of the other boat, especially when you're singlehanding.

Watch this video to see a Figaro 2 sailor doing it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4pdm0VwmkI You can sail for several minutes before you move the pole over. Or you don't need to move it over at all. Just eventually gybe back to the other direction. I do this all the time.

 

[wotayottie]

That begs the question of why you need the pole at all. I've flown a spinnaker downwind without a pole when gybing, but never on a broad reach. What happens if you do?

 

[TallBuoy]

Surely the clew and its guy would only swing on to the forestay and it would be impossible to set the sail to the correct wind angle.

 

[wotayottie]

Yes but thats what the muse says he does. In which case all the pole is doing is keeping one clew down.

 

[flaming]

Yes but thats what the muse says he does. In which case all the pole is doing is keeping one clew down.

No, what FM is saying is that he is able to gybe and sail downwind on the other gybe without moving the pole across. As soon as he comes up to a broad reach his kite won't be happy without the pole being swapped over.

 

[bbg]

Last week we caught up and became overlapped with another boat, both of us with mains boomed out to starboard and spinnakers flying. We were on his port side. He started veering towards us demanding that we kept clear. Both of us were well away from the mark or any obstruction.

Now as I understand it we were the windward boat as in " However, when sailing by the lee or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail lies. The other side is her windward side. When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat"

But when rule 17 says"If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course""clear astern" .

As I read it that means that we shouldnt sail above our proper course which we didnt but there was no obligation on him.

Correct?

I know there have been several replies, but it is not clear to me that you fully understand this. You were under the impression that Rule 17 obliged you, in the situation you were in, not to sail above your proper course. This is incorrect.

Rule 17 is conditional. It only applies in a specific circumstance:
"If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack."
So:
- were you clear astern? Yes
- did you become overlapped within two of your hull lengths to leeward of the boat on the same tack? No

So Rule 17 doesn't apply at all in the situation you were in.

You became overlapped to windward. It doesn't matter how far away you were when you became overlapped, because you didn't become overlapped to leeward of the other boat.

 

[TallBuoy]

No, what FM is saying is that he is able to gybe and sail downwind on the other gybe without moving the pole across. As soon as he comes up to a broad reach his kite won't be happy without the pole being swapped over.

Thats what I was trying to say, but as usual you expressed it better than me !!

 

[wotayottie]

I know there have been several replies, but it is not clear to me that you fully understand this. You were under the impression that Rule 17 obliged you, in the situation you were in, not to sail above your proper course. This is incorrect.

Rule 17 is conditional. It only applies in a specific circumstance:
"If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack."
So:
- were you clear astern? Yes
- did you become overlapped within two of your hull lengths to leeward of the boat on the same tack? No

So Rule 17 doesn't apply at all in the situation you were in.

You became overlapped to windward. It doesn't matter how far away you were when you became overlapped, because you didn't become overlapped to leeward of the other boat.

Yes - confused by the sloppy wording of the fule. The rule says to leeward but doesnt say whether its to leeward of the overtaking boat or the boat being overtaken. If we are the windward boat, which we are then we are upwind of him and he is to leeward of us. Having said that I accept that since we are both on the same tack, the windward boat should keep clear.

 

[flaming]

Yes - confused by the sloppy wording of the fule. The rule says to leeward but doesnt say whether its to leeward of the overtaking boat or the boat being overtaken. If we are the windward boat, which we are then we are upwind of him and he is to leeward of us. Having said that I accept that since we are both on the same tack, the windward boat should keep clear.

The wording of the rule isn't sloppy. The terms "leeward" and "windward" are very clearly defined in the definitions.

Leeward and Windward
A boat’s leeward side is the side that is or, when
she is head to wind, was away from the wind. However, when sailing by the
lee or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail
lies. The other side is her windward side. When two boats on the same tack
overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The
other is the windward boat.

 

[Foolish Muse]

No, what FM is saying is that he is able to gybe and sail downwind on the other gybe without moving the pole across. As soon as he comes up to a broad reach his kite won't be happy without the pole being swapped over.

Actually you'd be surprised at how far up you can sail with this method. 110 apparent wind is easy. I've even gone as far up as 90 apparent. As I said this is something I do virtually every time I go sailing now. It's great when I (as a singlehander) need to delay moving the pole across because of rough water. I also use it when I'll have a bunch of gybes in a row to get through a field of ships, rocks and beacons. You keep the sail under control by pulling down on both tweaker lines. This is critical.

Here's a photo.


However, my experience is that this is great for short term situations, but I need to hand steer. My auto pilot can't keep the boat underneath the sail well enough to let it steer for long periods.