I 'm not sure that I understand rule 17

[MissFitz]

Actually you'd be surprised at how far up you can sail with this method. 110 apparent wind is easy. I've even gone as far up as 90 apparent. As I said this is something I do virtually every time I go sailing now. It's great when I (as a singlehander) need to delay moving the pole across because of rough water. I also use it when I'll have a bunch of gybes in a row to get through a field of ships, rocks and beacons. You keep the sail under control by pulling down on both tweaker lines. This is critical.

Had never heard of this before but it will definitely be trying it out, many thanks for the tip!

 

[Foolish Muse]

Had never heard of this before but it will definitely be trying it out, many thanks for the tip!

The key to the whole thing is how far the clew of the spinnaker is from the forestay. I find that about 3' from the forestay is best for most points of sail. When sailing deeper downwind the clew will swing out away from the forestay, just like in the photo. When sailing higher, the clew will rest against the forestay. I find that it won't work if the clew is past the forestay.

 

[lpdsn]

You don't need a "big bloke to push out the guy."

OK, you don't need the human guy, but it does help keep the kite a bit further out.

When I first started doing this (as trimmer) I was made to fly the kite without a pole for extended periods: ten, twenty minutes. It intimidates the opposition even when on a fully crewed boat in round the cans or W/L racing. Done right, a few quick no-pole gybes can get you past a bunch of boats on the way into the leeward mark especially if they aren't slick at recovering from your spells on starboard.

You seem to be able to push it a bit further and I guess you can get away with that against single-handed opponents. It does leave you very vulnerable against full-crewed boats that can take advantage much more quickly hence my advice to Wotayottie to only try it on a run or close to it.

 

[Muddy32]

Watching Downwind sailing in Match Racing will teach you a lot, both in the rules[ there is an umpire on hand to ensure that the rules are correctly used] and also the handling of the crew is improved.

 

[Foolish Muse]

You seem to be able to push it a bit further and I guess you can get away with that against single-handed opponents.

I do all of my racing against fully crewed boats. I've mentioned this tactic to them and it seems that none of them are even aware of it as an option. Go figure.

 

[temptress]

lpdsn has this right.

.....

Where 17 gets involved is if the leeward boat has established her overlap within 2 boat lengths of the other boat. If she has then she is still ROW boat. That is very important to note. Windward boat must still keep clear. However, Leeward is now constrained to sailing no higher than her proper course. She can sail as low as she likes though.

.....
You are not allowed to come from behind and then luff.

Not quite -- you are required to sail your 'Proper course' - that is the course in YOUR opinion that is the fastest route for you to get to the next mark, it is not for another boat to dictate your tactics/sailing/fastest course that is entirely YOUR decision -- If that involves a close reach then a gybe that is perfectly acceptable as a proper course. Just remember you MUST give the other boat room to keep clear and you must be able to justify the proper course should the other boat choose to protest.

 

[flaming]

Not quite -- you are required to sail your 'Proper course' - that is the course in YOUR opinion that is the fastest route for you to get to the next mark, it is not for another boat to dictate your tactics/sailing/fastest course that is entirely YOUR decision -- If that involves a close reach then a gybe that is perfectly acceptable as a proper course. Just remember you MUST give the other boat room to keep clear and you must be able to justify the proper course should the other boat choose to protest.

Pretty sure that's what I said!

The point about simplifying it to "Don't come from behind and then luff" is that it's a simple enough statement to understand for people like the OP who are struggling with the rule. And the circumstances where you could legitimately claim "proper course" when you sail a higher course after you become overlapped than you were before you were overlapped are very rare indeed.

 

[temptress]

Pretty sure that's what I said!

The point about simplifying it to "Don't come from behind and then luff" is that it's a simple enough statement to understand for people like the OP who are struggling with the rule. And the circumstances where you could legitimately claim "proper course" when you sail a higher course after you become overlapped than you were before you were overlapped are very rare indeed.

it all depends on how competitive/close the racing is:

"ISAF CASE 14When, owing to a difference of opinion about a leeward boat’s proper course, two boats on the same tackconverge, the windward boat must keep clear. Two boats on the same leg sailing near one another mayhave different proper courses."

this allows the leeward boat a awful lot of options and justification.

 

[savageseadog]

it all depends on how competitive/close the racing is:

"ISAF CASE 14When, owing to a difference of opinion about a leeward boat’s proper course, two boats on the same tackconverge, the windward boat must keep clear. Two boats on the same leg sailing near one another mayhave different proper courses."

this allows the leeward boat a awful lot of options and justification.

"Proper Course" is one of the woolliest concepts in the rules. almost anything can be a proper course, in a protest situation a breach is unproveable. Flaming will no doubt be along shortly to tell me how wrong I am.

 

[flaming]

it all depends on how competitive/close the racing is:

"ISAF CASE 14When, owing to a difference of opinion about a leeward boat’s proper course, two boats on the same tackconverge, the windward boat must keep clear. Two boats on the same leg sailing near one another mayhave different proper courses."

this allows the leeward boat a awful lot of options and justification.

If you come from behind sailing one course, then alter course to windward only after you become overlapped, then you will have a very, very tough time in the room justifying that your course after you became overlapped was your proper course, as the committee will surely want to know why you were not sailing that course before you became overlapped....

The last protest I was involved in was an 11/17 protest. Protest was pretty much over when I produced a GPS track that was a straight line before and after the overlap was established. If it had changed to windward I'm sure we would have been binned. (So would he, as he failed to keep clear under 11)

 

[lpdsn]

this allows the leeward boat a awful lot of options and justification.

It certainly doesn't pay the windward boat to fail to keep clear. Except in the most blatant of cases the best course is to keep clear and protest if you don't like the leeward boat's course.