I just agreed to buy a boat in Italy. Now what do I do?

[riverliver]

All good stuff above. If other name above NG then Russell Kelly at LA Marine (UK Lawyers) were good on an aborted spanish buy. Don't be backward in asking specifically if the lawyer has bought in Italy under the form demanded. Not come across italian version but as someone else said MBYA format it pretty straightforward and requires brokers to have an escrow/client account for funds until completion.

Dont stint on VAT check. Its now a nightmare and likely to get worse. I would want someone else's neck on the line at that level to confirm that (a) VAT is paid and (b) the evidence is complete for future production to VAT authorities in EU (NB you can't bring it to UK without grief/payment)

Good Luck

 

[MapisM]

after a week of haggling we have a deal.

As an Italian, I wouldn't know where to start in listing which of your expectations don't match the local common practice.
I'm not criticizing you, mind. And I appreciate all your concerns.
But your counterpart is likely to be seeing you as a tire kicker.

Let me start with the basic - with apologies if you actually explained it and I missed it:
What is it exactly the deal that you have, "after a week of haggling"?
Do you possibly mean a back and forth discussion with the broker, at the end of which the broker told you that the amount you are willing to fork out would be OK for the seller?
If so, forget describing what you have as a deal: absolutely nothing is more like it.
And I am willing to bet that this is also how the broker would describe it.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't even submit your offer to the seller, go figure!

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

In this case you will fall under a Maltese system not Italian, although the contract with an Italian broker and possibly real Italian ownership will be under Italian law.
If you are buying the boat with Maltese company limited included and keeping the same registry you can do it all in a day. This is the faster solution to be fair.
A new Maltese company is about 2 to 3k to form, so if they sell it to you in those figures it might be best way forward.
Deletion should take about a week, and then it is up to you to register the boat.
The Italian system, for the rest is similar to the English or US brokerage system. Subject to survey and time frame.
You can always edit the time frame if you are not comfortable with it, without exaggerating in a date too much in the future.
Suggestion; speak with your surveyor before signing.
Its the same in the UK, I know some people who lost money to British brokers or put nation here when they did not observe the system.
If you miss the survey you have two options, or you buy the boat how it is, and or lose the deposit.
These fantasies that lost deposits happen only in Italy are forum fictions of the stupidest kind.

 

[Dogone]

As an Italian, I wouldn't know where to start in listing which of your expectations don't match the local common practice.
I'm not criticizing you, mind. And I appreciate all your concerns.
But your counterpart is likely to be seeing you as a tire kicker.

Let me start with the basic - with apologies if you actually explained it and I missed it:
What is it exactly the deal that you have, "after a week of haggling"?
Do you possibly mean a back and forth discussion with the broker, at the end of which the broker told you that the amount you are willing to fork out would be OK for the seller?
If so, forget describing what you have as a deal: absolutely nothing is more like it.
And I am willing to bet that this is also how the broker would describe it.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't even submit your offer to the seller, go figure!

The deal is x price for boat with an allowance for certain repairs I know about, subject to survey, structural test and a sea trial to be done by y date and completion on or before z date. Not just the price therefore. The vendor has agreed all this, so that means we have a deal. Not a completion of course or even a binding contract. Those steps I hope will follow. So what's wrong so far?

 

[benjenbav]

Prior to retiring in 2022 I was a UK lawyer with plenty of experience of 9 and 10 figure deals. Not in the maritime sector, though and I know enough not to try to touch something as out of my field of expertise as this with a barge pole.

There’s enough €€€ at stake to make dabbling with internet hacks a dangerous business and I would quickly onboard a maritime contracts lawyer with good PI cover in the right jurisdiction (I’d be surprised if the vendor would agree to the contract being written in EN law) and take it from there, both in terms of setting and managing expectations and in protecting your financial interests.

As to finding such a person it’s not easy. I still have reasonably good connections in the legal world but still had a couple of false starts last year in instructing a good lawyer for an overseas case of my own in a jurisdiction and subject area closer to home than this.

The only useful suggestion that I could offer as a starting point would be to find out if there is a governing body for lawyers in the relevant jurisdiction (Italy?) to provide a list of names specialising in maritime contracts and then drill down from there.

You may be more comfortable with the Italian language than me (not difficult) but I would also want to find a firm that was comfortable dealing with English speaking clients. Legal translation is not like google translate and it’s difficult to find people who are happy to accept liability for technical translation of contracts.

 

[MapisM]

The vendor has agreed all this

How?
If in written and signed by both yourself and the vendor (which would be VERY unusual), it IS indeed a binding contract - though arguably a bit weak due to lack of deposit.
That's academic anyhow, since you say it isn't a binding contract. So, what is it, a pourparler?
That would bring us back to having no deal at all.

 

[westernman]

Not for de-registration fees though. That is a good point I will try to settle. It shouldn't be much, but best to not assume.

De-registration normally has to be done by the seller. And normally he would be expected to cough up for it.
De-registering in the UK costs nothing.

 

[Dogone]

In this case you will fall under a Maltese system not Italian, although the contract with an Italian broker and possibly real Italian ownership will be under Italian law.
If you are buying the boat with Maltese company limited included and keeping the same registry you can do it all in a day. This is the faster solution to be fair.
A new Maltese company is about 2 to 3k to form, so if they sell it to you in those figures it might be best way forward.
Deletion should take about a week, and then it is up to you to register the boat.
The Italian system, for the rest is similar to the English or US brokerage system. Subject to survey and time frame.
You can always edit the time frame if you are not comfortable with it, without exaggerating in a date too much in the future.
Suggestion; speak with your surveyor before signing.
Its the same in the UK, I know some people who lost money to British brokers or put nation here when they did not observe the system.
If you miss the survey you have two options, or you buy the boat how it is, and or lose the deposit.
These fantasies that lost deposits happen only in Italy are forum fictions of the stupidest kind.

Thanks for the comments.

The owner is an individual and I plan to own it in my name and to keep it on the Maltese registry to avoid the hassle and cost of measured surveys. I take it the only advantage of company ownership is of time delays as compared to private registration? I understand company ownership may have some liability advantages, but I'm not sure I need that.

There shouldn't be time issues with the survey and sea trial. The vendor indicates he is flexible enough.

 

[Dogone]

How?
If in written and signed by both yourself and the vendor (which would be VERY unusual), it IS indeed a binding contract - though arguably a bit weak due to lack of deposit.
That's academic anyhow, since you say it isn't a binding contract. So, what is it, a pourparler?
That would bring us back to having no deal at all.

We are evidently at cross purposes. A deal is an agreement, that's what we have. Your definition of a deal seems to be a binding agreement. A binding agreement is a contract.

 

[westernman]

Thanks for the comments.

The owner is an individual and I plan to own it in my name and to keep it on the Maltese registry to avoid the hassle and cost of measured surveys. I take it the only advantage of company ownership is of time delays as compared to private registration? I understand company ownership may have some liability advantages, but I'm not sure I need that.

There shouldn't be time issues with the survey and sea trial. The vendor indicates he is flexible enough.

I think the Maltese registry is quite expensive for a normal yacht.
If you are into 8 figure territory for the purchase price, then may be Maltese registration is worthwhile.

If you are not an EU citizen you will need a Maltese or EU company to own it. This has additional costs and of course requires tax declarations every year (even it contains 0 everywhere).

Find out exactly what the costs are. I also think it has to be renewed every year.

 

[Dogone]

Prior to retiring in 2022 I was a UK lawyer with plenty of experience of 9 and 10 figure deals. Not in the maritime sector, though and I know enough not to try to touch something as out of my field of expertise as this with a barge pole.

There’s enough €€€ at stake to make dabbling with internet hacks a dangerous business and I would quickly onboard a maritime contracts lawyer with good PI cover in the right jurisdiction (I’d be surprised if the vendor would agree to the contract being written in EN law) and take it from there, both in terms of setting and managing expectations and in protecting your financial interests.

As to finding such a person it’s not easy. I still have reasonably good connections in the legal world but still had a couple of false starts last year in instructing a good lawyer for an overseas case of my own in a jurisdiction and subject area closer to home than this.

The only useful suggestion that I could offer as a starting point would be to find out if there is a governing body for lawyers in the relevant jurisdiction (Italy?) to provide a list of names specialising in maritime contracts and then drill down from there.

You may be more comfortable with the Italian language than me (not difficult) but I would also want to find a firm that was comfortable dealing with English speaking clients. Legal translation is not like google translate and it’s difficult to find people who are happy to accept liability for technical translation of contracts.

Thanks for that and It all is good sense to me and corresponds to how I plan to proceed.

I checked out the MYBA agreement and it is in English Law, so I'm happy about that and will press for it.

There are surely excellent lawyers who can do this. I'll look tomorrow. Clyde&Co are a contender. God help me with their fees though.

 

[Dogone]

I think the Maltese registry is quite expensive for a normal yacht.
If you are into 8 figure territory for the purchase price, then may be Maltese registration is worthwhile.

If you are not an EU citizen you will need a Maltese or EU company to own it. This has additional costs and of course requires tax declarations every year (even it contains 0 everywhere).

Find out exactly what the costs are. I also think it has to be renewed every year.

You are correct, Malta requires a company ownership for a UK citizen and that costs €85/yr plus agent fees and probably legal set up fees. The Malta ship registry is €175/yr. Not a deal breaker, but it may well be best to move to a cheaper jurisdiction and pay the measurement survey costs.

 

[benjenbav]

Thanks for that and It all is good sense to me and corresponds to how I plan to proceed.

I checked out the MYBA agreement and it is in English Law, so I'm happy about that and will press for it.

There are surely excellent lawyers who can do this. I'll look tomorrow. Clyde&Co are a contender. God help me with their fees though.

It’s certainly an appealing idea for a UK National to use a UK headquartered international firm that specialises in the sector and has a presence in Italy.

A note of caution that I’d mention is that quite often the non-UK offices of such firms can be both fairly independent and somewhat loosely attached to HQ.

Whilst this may not detract from their expertise, it can from the concept that you are dealing with an organisation with essentially British mores.

I don’t know if that’s the case with Clyde & Co: I’ve had them on the other side on deals but have no familiarity with their business.

If you wanted another competitor of Clyde’s in the maritime sector (also with an office in Italy) to benchmark I’d mention Watson Farley & Williams, albeit with the disclaimers that various friends of mine have been or still are partners there; I have instructed them myself; and I nearly joined them on a couple of occasions - so I’m possibly prejudiced towards them. WFW would also be reassuringly expensive, of course, and I suspect that their maritime practice is largely geared towards corporates and that it principally deals with commercial shipping.

 

[DAW]

Thanks for that and It all is good sense to me and corresponds to how I plan to proceed.

I checked out the MYBA agreement and it is in English Law, so I'm happy about that and will press for it.

There are surely excellent lawyers who can do this. I'll look tomorrow. Clyde&Co are a contender. God help me with their fees though.

For my first purchase I used someone recommended to me in the Plymouth office of Ashfords, but this was a long time ago. For more recent work I've used Hill Dickinson in Monaco and Athens. Whichever firm you choose, make sure they have a specialist marine or yachting department, with lawyers who are familiar with transactions involving yachts and their registration.

Malta is a great place to register a vessel if you intend to charter it commercially, or have professional crew and will be based in EU waters. I'm not sure it's such a good choice for a UK-based private owner. You will be adding considerable complexity for not much additional benefit compared with a UK flag.

 

[benjenbav]

For my first purchase I used someone recommended to me in the Plymouth office of Ashfords, but this was a long time ago. For more recent work I've used Hill Dickinson in Monaco and Athens. Whichever firm you choose, make sure they have a specialist marine or yachting department, with lawyers who are familiar with transactions involving yachts and their registration.

Malta is a great place to register a vessel if you intend to charter it commercially, or have professional crew and will be based in EU waters. I'm not sure it's such a good choice for a UK-based private owner. You will be adding considerable complexity for not much additional benefit compared with a UK flag.

Fred drift, I’m afraid. Thanks for that: you reminded me to wish a happy birthday to an old friend - now very much retired - who used to be a partner at Ashfords.

Sometimes I think I know too many lawyers. Heck, I even married one.

 

[westernman]

Malta is a great place to register a vessel if you intend to charter it commercially, or have professional crew and will be based in EU waters. I'm not sure it's such a good choice for a UK-based private owner. You will be adding considerable complexity for not much additional benefit compared with a UK flag.

That was my conclusion as well.
Or the vessel is new or needs to be imported into the EU and you can make use of the much reduced VAT rate for boats. Particularly if over 24m.

 

[MapisM]

We are evidently at cross purposes. A deal is an agreement, that's what we have. Your definition of a deal seems to be a binding agreement. A binding agreement is a contract.

I don't think we are at cross purposes, and if you think it's just a matter of semantic, well, it isn't.
As I said in my first post, my question about if and how what you call a deal was formalized is just the first basic point that I was trying to address, but there's much more that ought to be considered.
Not to mention that I believe to be the only Italian contributing to this thread so far, and I have good reasons to tell that I know the local practices and regulations on this matter like the back of my hand.

But... Hey-ho!
Sorry if you found my posts annoying, and good luck for a satisfactory completion of your "deal" - whatever that means.
From my part, I'll just keep some popcorn ready for following in the background the next steps.

 

[Portofino]

I don't think we are at cross purposes, and if you think it's just a matter of semantic, well, it isn't.
As I said in my first post, my question about if and how what you call a deal was formalized is just the first basic point that I was trying to address, but there's much more that ought to be considered.
Not to mention that I believe to be the only Italian contributing to this thread so far, and I have good reasons to tell that I know the local practices and regulations on this matter like the back of my hand.

But... Hey-ho!
Sorry if you found my posts annoying, and good luck for a satisfactory completion of your "deal" - whatever that means.
From my part, I'll just keep some popcorn ready for following in the background the next steps.

We are often at daggers but while I have attempted to inflate an air bag for the falling stunt man in a movie fall , you have left the guy to splat on concrete.
I would like to hear the outcome btw .Having successfully navigated all this .
I won’t post any more just listen .

 

[MapisM]

We are often at daggers.

Naah, only when you pretend that your boat is better than mine - as well as any others!
...sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[oldgit]

“Believe me my young friend, there is nothing – absolutely nothing – half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats.” So says Ratty to Mole in Kenneth Grahame's classic novel 'The Wind in the Willows'.