How would spend £200K and £1400 per month to buy a bluewater yacht to liveaboard and sail / maybe circumnavigate for years to come?

geem said:
You mistakes modern boat building for quality boat building.,they aren't the same. Modern boat building for mass production isn't about making reliable and tough boats for high mileage applications. Its about engineering them to be adequate in their majority use. You charter boat will have spent most of its time motoring about from marina to marina. Its didn't do 1000nm passages or more.
It was operating entirely within the environment predicted by the designer.
If you want things to last and perform under more demanding conditions, you design them accordingly.

There are many older boats about that would suit the op. Giving a balanced view that all that is new isn't necessarily better is my goal.
As my surveyor said. Don't touch the latest mass production boats. The older models are better built.
As an engineer I value good design. It great to see the high tech race boats all arriving in Antigua for the Caribbean 600. Lots of modern machinery that super high tech and expensive. A long way from modern mass produced charter boats built to a price
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You should tell that to all the owners of charter companies and sailing schools who buy and use standard production boats again and again for intensive commercial work. I know you try and build this myth that "bluewater" sailing is somehow special and needs something different (preferably 40 years or more old!). Load of hogwash. The boats that Sunsail use for their charter and corporate sailing business in the UK (standard off the shelf Jeanneaus) do more work and miles in all weathers in their 6-7 years on the fleet than most ocean sailing boats. Do the sums. 25 weeks a year 250 miles a typical week for 6 years - well over 30000 miles. They don't break of fall apart and then have a long life with subsequent owners. I could go on with other examples but you don't want to hear that.

Your claims about how modern boats are used just do not stand up to any rigorous scrutiny - exactly the same boats that you claim (incorrectly) are lightly used (have you ever actually owned and operated a charter boat) are widely used for "bluewater" sailing. It has to be so because those are the ones that are affordable. As I pointed out even 25% of your Tilman inspired OCC members chose standard production mass produced French or German boats. I don't care what your "surveyor" says - he is hardly likely to tell somebody with a closed mind they might be wrong would he? Why are you now talking about high tech race boats? Nothing to do with the current subject matter. Another diversionary tactic to avoid a serious discussion.

BTW have you now worked out how modern rudder bearing systems work and why they are so superior to Victorian steam engineering. Might explain why they are almost universally used by today's boat builders at all levels of the price range. (see post#157) It is not because they are cheap and easy (they are not) but because they are simply better.

Getting back to the OPs original question. You will note in more than one of my responses I have suggested that he may well choose an older boat, not because it is necessarily better for the job, but because in the smaller and cheaper price range up to around £50k boats of that type are more numerous and often better value. But as the budget increases the proportion of newer boats increases and older boats decrease. The properties of many newer boats make them more attractive for long term cruising and offer better value.
 
Do sunsail boats out of the Solent really average 250 miles a week? You'd have to be pretty motivated and lucky with the weather to be doing that. Can't imagine many families even doing half of that.
 
Sea Change said:
When a Sunsail boat breaks, they're likely only a few hours away from a port of refuge.
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The ones out here are all in varying states of disrepair! Ditto Dream Yacht charter (AKA Nightmare yacht charter).
We meet plenty of charterers who pay out to charter these boats. Not many we speak to are happy with the boat condition. Lots of broken systems on these heavily used boat here in Antigua.
I am sure a lot of it is down to poor maintenance by the charter companies and charterer who don't have much clue. Either way, we hear their complaints.
Ps. We generally meet them because we kite surfing and wingfoil. Lots of charterer seem to bring this kit on holiday with them here in Antigua
 
I’ve never done proper blue water cruising. A few longish races, but that’s all.
However, some good friends of mine have. In the 1980s they did a long Atlantic circuit, in a Nicholson 30. traditional heavy long keel.
In the 1990s they operated a sea school, one of them was a YM instructor and did mile builders to Canaries as well as coastal stuff. For this they used a Westerley ShiteHawk or something (Corsair maybe, had an aft cabin). This was an AWB I guess. It survived some extremely testing conditions on one occasion, in Biscay
Then about 6 or 7 years ago they sailed U.K. to Australia in a Bavaria 41/42 something, second hand but newish off the shelf lightweight fin keel death trap. They made a few mods, nothing radical, bought good sails and some anchoring kit etc. Trouble free. They sold the boat very easily in Australia.

This couple is very experienced and capable. They moved with the times I guess
 
ridgy said:
Do sunsail boats out of the Solent really average 250 miles a week? You'd have to be pretty motivated and lucky with the weather to be doing that. Can't imagine many families even doing half of that.
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The boats I was referring to are the ones they use for racing and corporate days , not for family cruising. Equally boats used by sailing schools will do that sort of mileage. 6-8 hours a day underway at 5-6 knots average.

As you see people with no actual knowledge and experience of running charter boats waffle on about lots of unserviceable boats and unhappy customers - all observed from the bar or drifting around on a kite surfer . Nothing could be further from the truth. Of course the boats have a hard life and things break when you let inexperienced people loose on big powerful boats, but they have to be robust enough and easily fixed ready for the next group of punters with a 24 hour turnaround..

In the 7 years I ran my charter boat it never once failed to be available for a charter. Nothing of any consequence broke. The most common repair items were to do with domestic equipment, loos, water systems, lights, cooker electronics etc. Never anything to do with engine, saildrive, steering rig or deck gear. When I sold it after 14 years the only non original parts of consequence were the saildrive (after 3500 hours and abuse by charterers) Lofrans windlass, sails and forward water tank.
 
Rob44 said:
Hi there, I’m hoping to utilise the experience of the site for some ideas, based on the purchase of a live-aboard (for solo sailing), Class A yacht, purchased from, let’s say, around £200K from a house sale, and a guaranteed income of around £1400 per month. Intent would be to sail the oceans / circumnavigation perhaps, but more often than not to be anchored up somewhere interesting for days/weeks at a time and living reasonably frugally, given the limited income each month.

I was thinking of something like maybe a Moody 44 from the ‘90’s, maybe for around £130K(?) and set-up well, including for off-grid; so like lithium batteries/solar/water-maker/wind gen/auto-pilot/decent nav systems/original engine replaced/ sails in good order/electric windlass/rigged for solo sailing, and so on, with no seriously major work required. Also, would the shallow-draft versions of 1.5m be a significant issue for ocean crossings? I guess it would make more anchorage options available but what’s the thoughts?

I was also thinking of budgeting maybe £20K for the additional / inevitable work necessary, to get her up to scratch?

So with around £150K now gone, do you think departing with around £50K in the bank and £1400 per month to be financially reasonable long term? I guess there’s all sorts of maintenance disasters that might befall someone, but if the rough guide of 10% of boat cost per year for maintenance is used, that’s potentially only around 5 or 6, maybe 7 years of sailing?

Or should the initial purchase be less, maybe for around £80K with £20K for updating and with now £100K in the bank? I figure this would put a Moody 44 out of reach, so what else might be a good alternative?

Whilst I appreciate people do this in all sorts of boats, things like open ocean/off-shore dependability, solo capability, storage space, fuel/water capacity and live-aboard comfort to be quite high on the list of necessities.

Time, experience and ability to use to get a sub-standard boat up to scratch is also minimal.

In fact…I’ve very little sailing experience whatsoever, other than dinghy’s from over the years, but would (will!) at least do the 6 month (I think?) yacht master qualification and hopefully join a club for the opportunities to actually sail bigger boats and speak to experienced people and just learn as much as possible about the other necessities such as engine trouble-shooting, electrics, plumbing and general boat DIY.

I appreciate people may very reasonably query if sailing is actually for me, given my very limited experience, but I think I already know that answer, and I’ve some years of tropical living and also some limited cross-over skills from my current profession regarding the basics of aerodynamics/meteorology/navigation sort of thing (pilot).

I guess that’s a long post…but I’d love to hear of people’s ideas and opinions of roughly what they’d plan to spend on their boat and on what and why.

I know there’s no definitive answer, but maybe there’s some insight into some particular boats and some parameters.

Thanks so much.
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Rob,

I have been passed your name by Graham Frankland. I have a Moody 376 and am sailing from Walton on Naze , Essex, to Inverness, by day and if suitable night sails. I will be leaving Walton on May 7 th , weather permitting and would like some assistance from Walton to Grimsby as a minimum, but am happy if you want to continue with me further north. I would also share my experiences of boats and renovation with you. If you are interested please ring 07742698366.

Martin
 
martincourtis said:
Rob,

I have been passed your name by Graham Frankland. I have a Moody 376 and am sailing from Walton on Naze , Essex, to Inverness, by day and if suitable night sails. I will be leaving Walton on May 7 th , weather permitting and would like some assistance from Walton to Grimsby as a minimum, but am happy if you want to continue with me further north. I would also share my experiences of boats and renovation with you. If you are interested please ring xxxxxxxx

Martin
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Are you sure you meant to post this on an open forum? At least don't post your phone or email on the world wild web.
 
martincourtis said:
Rob,

I have been passed your name by Graham Frankland. I have a Moody 376 and am sailing from Walton on Naze , Essex, to Inverness, by day and if suitable night sails. I will be leaving Walton on May 7 th , weather permitting and would like some assistance from Walton to Grimsby as a minimum, but am happy if you want to continue with me further north. I would also share my experiences of boats and renovation with you. If you are interested please ring XXXXXXXXX.

Martin
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Hi Martin,

Thanks so much! I’d be delighted to accompany you and have the opportunity to do so much sailing. I’m planning to have completed a CC course by then, so hopefully my assistance might be a bit more useful too. I’ll give you ring Thursday around lunchtime.
 
Sea Change said:
Good luck with it.
Btw, you might want to look up a book called 'Get Real, Get Gone' which represents one viewpoint from the low budget end of things.
Hope to see you back on here.
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Thanks, and thanks for the book recommendation. I literally read it all in an evening - couldn’t put it down 😂
 
geem said:
The point i was making is that self aligning plastic bearings are great for builders. They are cheap and fast to install. You don't need perfect alignment in everything because the plastic bearings deal with it. They wear out faster than a precision built bronze bearings. Building a rudder with bronze bearings requires far more accurate alignment and manufacturing tolerances. The bottom line is it costs more to do. You get what you pay for.
If you sail long distance, these differences matter. If you install plastic bearings you can expect to need to replace them far more frequently than a precision engineered bronze bearings.
Production boats get away with it because most really don't go so far. Those that do have to accept a far more regular replacement regime
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Yep, bronze is best for marine use. Everywhere. That’s why everyone needs to get bronze thru-hulls, just like I did. A pity though is that they don’t offer bronze hulls and masts. That’d last a while longer than the median rough charterer’s plastic cruiser. (AWB).
 
Zing said:
Yep, bronze is best for marine use. Everywhere. That’s why everyone needs to get bronze thru-hulls, just like I did. A pity though is that they don’t offer bronze hulls and masts. That’d last a while longer than the median rough charterer’s plastic cruiser. (AWB).
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I like it. Ultimate heavy displacement "bluewater" boat
 
Rob, a couple of thoughts. Not sure if you're retiring from the airlines but I followed a similar path starting 10 years ago when I did a day skipper, chartered all over, coastal skipper, then YM ahead of retiring and since then bought my own boat. With plenty of charter sailing under my belt and membership of a Solent boat club, I soon realised I was happy enough pottering along the south coast and across to France.

We've spent up to 3 weeks on board and it's always nice to come home to our own bed. If you still plan to sail the world, a colleague, Jim Wallace, did exactly this. He bought a Slocum 43 in Croatia, shake down sail back to UK, kitted it out for a RTW trip and did just that. The boat is now back in Gosport and was for sale until recently. Full disclosure, the buyers survey reported osmosis so they pulled out so Jim is currently undecided the next step.

On the basis I don't believe any boat has ever sunk because of osmosis, there may be a bargain to be had. If you want to be put in touch with Jim, send me a PM. Secondly, if you fancy a day sail in the Solent and see how my decision from "must be a Hallberg Rassy" to finally purchasing a stock Beneteau AWB to fit my revised "mission profile" was made, then get in touch.

From your comments, you remind me of my previous self where I tried to carry aviation related experience across into boating until I realised it's very different.

Here's an article about Jim.

I sailed across the pacific with one hand - Yachting Monthly
 
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