How would spend £200K and £1400 per month to buy a bluewater yacht to liveaboard and sail / maybe circumnavigate for years to come?

[pretzel_logic]

Hi Rob44

My tuppence worth on two things.

Firstly, courses. My father, brother and wife, are or were pilots like you (for a large 'British' Airline - prob similar to you). So I have a very vague idea of the training involved to get there. In their case it was fighters for the RAF, but you can do (I think) 'zero to hero' courses. And eventually they had to do qualifications which eventually lead to an ATPL (which I'm guessing is where you are at). At the end of all that you then become a very junior pilot with an airline and you then build up experience over the years.

Contrast that with the yachting world where you do a zero to hero course in three months, and then you're a qualified skipper and able to do that commercially. No experience, no necessity for any leadership potential, no need for any 'right hand seat time', you're in charge straight away. In some ways it's like learning the piano, you get so fixated on the pieces of paper (Grades) that you get to Grade 8 without actually 'learning' the piano - you've just learnt the bits necessary to pass the exams. There is very little experience gained.

The actual individual courses (DS and CS is what I did) themselves are ok. Personally I think that some of the focus is wrong. They spent large amounts of time practising how to fish someone out of the water, but very little time focussing on how to prevent that from occurring in the first place. By teaching people how to move around the deck and do tasks effectively whilst holding on. One hand for yourself, one hand for the ship type of thing.

The other point is that they are quite good at teaching marina/parking/mooring procedures, but when I did my DS it was a Jeanneau and the CS was a Halberg Rassey. Both of which will go astern willingly and much of the manoeuvring was based around that. In the real world a lot of boats will not go astern very well and so different methods need to be adapted and (on my courses) they weren't recognised. However I get that they can't cater for everything but it needs to be borne in mind.

The point being that courses are not the be all and end all - and in fact don't seem to be particularly valued outside of the charter/sailing club world and aren't necessary to sail your own boat. I only did them as I wanted to charter a boat, otherwise I probably wouldn't have bothered.

The second point refers to money. In your OP you referred to giving it all up and living on £1400 a month. Being a pilot I'm guessing you'll be on a comfortable salary and no matter what anyone says about how thrifty they are and how little they can live on, the truth is that taking a large drop in income is a struggle.

Personally, what I would do is to carry on working, do a CC course then buy something small that you can learn the ... er... ropes on. You'll so much more about actually sailing in a multitude of different conditions and looking after a boat (neither of which are addressed to any great extent in the courses) and you can carry on working.

Don't forget that every year you work then not only is that another year to save/top up your pension but also another year that you don't have to fund from your savings. So effectively two years from every year you work.

 

[ylop]

Have you done this?

No when I was young and stupid enough to think it would be fun I didn’t have the money! But I know someone who did a full round the world trip and someone else who has done a single leg. Both would describe it as life changing.

 

[Rob44]

Dont forget the usual catch 22 of previous experience - nobody hires a delivery skipper who has not done 20 previous deliveries. So would need to do lots of crewing on delivery trips first - most will cover travel costs but probably nothing more.
So even with qualifications (up front expense) you would probably be at least 2-5 years of non earning deliveries away from actually earning any positive income (and that won't be huge).
The cash flow curve from this probably is very daunting.

Indeed, and what you describe is my perception. I’d only anticipate doing such work after years and many miles down range. And I’m only considering it all (primarily) as a simple means to top up sailing funds as and when.

I’m certainly not considering it as some kind of career change.

 

[Sea Change]

You would make more money renting out a flat, home than delivery skipper. Many delivery companies are no more than intermediaries between the skipper and client i.e. facilitators. As a delivery skipper you will have to have your own insurance for third party liability and are completely responsible for the delivery. The delivery company will pay the skipper for a travel and one or two nights at each end. If the boat needs further preparation and you have to stay in a hotel for longer, and the boat owner will not pay for the extra nights, that comes out of your pocket. At least one company insists on YM Ocean for all their delivery skippers, but in reality do use YM - make of that what you want - say one thing, do another. The state of some yachts that are delivered is shit, although you have a right, as skipper, to refuse a yacht if condition is bad. It is not a good way to make a crust. Skippering other boats for clients on trips would be a better option. However, rental income from a house or flat is probably best.

Which is exactly how we fund our cruising. It works well for us because there is very high demand for holiday lets in my neck of the woods. There's absolutely no way I could make the same income as a delivery skipper. The only way I could come close is by committing to a non-rotational job on a superyacht, which doesn't really fit in with owning my own boat and having a family. It's a young person's game.

 

[Rob44]

Tahiti is cheap, but it’s also not likely to have much delivery work! But even at Tahiti prices you are taking a significant chunk out of your earnings just for storing your own boat so you can sail someone else’s.

Do you think that when delivery jobs are quoted as £150/d + expenses that the people hiring you will want to pay your travel from the middle of nowhere?

Add on the days you need to leave your boat in the marina whilst travelling to/from the job and I think you really will struggle to make it worthwhile unless you happen to end up in a spot where there’s real demand for skippers and little local competition.

From what I can see liveaboard people fall into a few camps:

- sufficiently wealthy to not need work
- still able to do whatever they did before, working remotely
- practical skills - particularly doing boat repair, rigging, canvas work etc. stuff that can be done cash in hand.
- hospitality type work, but likely needs you to set down roots for most of a season.
- YouTube! How do you look in a Bikini?

Then there’s delivery skippers / instructors etc. who get paid to sail someone else’s boat. The Venn diagrams must overlap but as there’s enough people who do delivery work for peanuts it’s not a great way to subsidise your income.

I am incredibly attractive so maybe the YouTube bikini option might be a good alternate idea, all things considered

 

[Sea Change]

Hi Rob44

My tuppence worth on two things.

Firstly, courses. My father, brother and wife, are or were pilots like you (for a large 'British' Airline - prob similar to you). So I have a very vague idea of the training involved to get there. In their case it was fighters for the RAF, but you can do (I think) 'zero to hero' courses. And eventually they had to do qualifications which eventually lead to an ATPL (which I'm guessing is where you are at). At the end of all that you then become a very junior pilot with an airline and you then build up experience over the years.

Contrast that with the yachting world where you do a zero to hero course in three months, and then you're a qualified skipper and able to do that commercially. No experience, no necessity for any leadership potential, no need for any 'right hand seat time', you're in charge straight away. In some ways it's like learning the piano, you get so fixated on the pieces of paper (Grades) that you get to Grade 8 without actually 'learning' the piano - you've just learnt the bits necessary to pass the exams. There is very little experience gained.

The actual individual courses (DS and CS is what I did) themselves are ok. Personally I think that some of the focus is wrong. They spent large amounts of time practising how to fish someone out of the water, but very little time focussing on how to prevent that from occurring in the first place. By teaching people how to move around the deck and do tasks effectively whilst holding on. One hand for yourself, one hand for the ship type of thing.

The other point is that they are quite good at teaching marina/parking/mooring procedures, but when I did my DS it was a Jeanneau and the CS was a Halberg Rassey. Both of which will go astern willingly and much of the manoeuvring was based around that. In the real world a lot of boats will not go astern very well and so different methods need to be adapted and (on my courses) they weren't recognised. However I get that they can't cater for everything but it needs to be borne in mind.

The point being that courses are not the be all and end all - and in fact don't seem to be particularly valued outside of the charter/sailing club world and aren't necessary to sail your own boat. I only did them as I wanted to charter a boat, otherwise I probably wouldn't have bothered.

The second point refers to money. In your OP you referred to giving it all up and living on £1400 a month. Being a pilot I'm guessing you'll be on a comfortable salary and no matter what anyone says about how thrifty they are and how little they can live on, the truth is that taking a large drop in income is a struggle.

Personally, what I would do is to carry on working, do a CC course then buy something small that you can learn the ... er... ropes on. You'll so much more about actually sailing in a multitude of different conditions and looking after a boat (neither of which are addressed to any great extent in the courses) and you can carry on working.

Don't forget that every year you work then not only is that another year to save/top up your pension but also another year that you don't have to fund from your savings. So effectively two years from every year you work.

I think I was quite lucky in that my re-introduction to sailing (I messed around in Oppies a bit as a kid) was with a group running a couple of lug-rigged traditional boats in Stornoway. I was initially a bit sceptical because I didn't see how learning on a completely different type of boat could really help my long term ambition to get a cruising yacht. But in fact it was a great way to learn. It was a well rounded apprenticeship, helped by the fact that the whole thing was done on a shoe-string. I didn't just go sailing, I helped with lift outs, trailers, laying moorings, tying up in rafts, drying out on the shore, and maintenance outside whilst spending as little money as possible and dodging the weather. It didn't officially give me any bits of paper but it taught me what real life boat ownership would involve. As it was all done by volunteers, the guys running the show were generally pretty relaxed and did their best to encourage newcomers to get involved.

If the OP has anything similar near him, I'd suggest giving it a go.

 

[Sea Change]

I am incredibly attractive so maybe the YouTube bikini option might be a good alternate idea, all things considered

There's always Only Fans!

 

[Rob44]

Hi Rob44

My tuppence worth on two things.

Firstly, courses. My father, brother and wife, are or were pilots like you (for a large 'British' Airline - prob similar to you). So I have a very vague idea of the training involved to get there. In their case it was fighters for the RAF, but you can do (I think) 'zero to hero' courses. And eventually they had to do qualifications which eventually lead to an ATPL (which I'm guessing is where you are at). At the end of all that you then become a very junior pilot with an airline and you then build up experience over the years.

Contrast that with the yachting world where you do a zero to hero course in three months, and then you're a qualified skipper and able to do that commercially. No experience, no necessity for any leadership potential, no need for any 'right hand seat time', you're in charge straight away. In some ways it's like learning the piano, you get so fixated on the pieces of paper (Grades) that you get to Grade 8 without actually 'learning' the piano - you've just learnt the bits necessary to pass the exams. There is very little experience gained.

The actual individual courses (DS and CS is what I did) themselves are ok. Personally I think that some of the focus is wrong. They spent large amounts of time practising how to fish someone out of the water, but very little time focussing on how to prevent that from occurring in the first place. By teaching people how to move around the deck and do tasks effectively whilst holding on. One hand for yourself, one hand for the ship type of thing.

The other point is that they are quite good at teaching marina/parking/mooring procedures, but when I did my DS it was a Jeanneau and the CS was a Halberg Rassey. Both of which will go astern willingly and much of the manoeuvring was based around that. In the real world a lot of boats will not go astern very well and so different methods need to be adapted and (on my courses) they weren't recognised. However I get that they can't cater for everything but it needs to be borne in mind.

The point being that courses are not the be all and end all - and in fact don't seem to be particularly valued outside of the charter/sailing club world and aren't necessary to sail your own boat. I only did them as I wanted to charter a boat, otherwise I probably wouldn't have bothered.

The second point refers to money. In your OP you referred to giving it all up and living on £1400 a month. Being a pilot I'm guessing you'll be on a comfortable salary and no matter what anyone says about how thrifty they are and how little they can live on, the truth is that taking a large drop in income is a struggle.

Personally, what I would do is to carry on working, do a CC course then buy something small that you can learn the ... er... ropes on. You'll so much more about actually sailing in a multitude of different conditions and looking after a boat (neither of which are addressed to any great extent in the courses) and you can carry on working.

Don't forget that every year you work then not only is that another year to save/top up your pension but also another year that you don't have to fund from your savings. So effectively two years from every year you work.

Some good stuff there. As I mentioned earlier, I intend to give myself a rough “cut the lines” date which will be at least a few years from now. If it’s feasible to reduce that time sensibly then great; these are current avenues I’m interested in exploring. Time flies and far too long can be spent in preparation and perhaps even wasted.

The delivery Captain work that interests me isn’t something I perceive as being done as a career change, far from it, it’s just an idea of how to top up funds at some point far down the line.

 

[geem]

Just to add to Baggywrinkles reply - your embellished anecdote about ruddder bearings in (was it one or two?) Jeanneau 54 s several years ago does not justify your subsequent claim that they are all cheap rubbish. This ignores the 10s of thousands of boats built in the last 35 years or so using such bearings and sailing all round the world. Just because one of your mates modified his to bronze bearings is irrelevant - there is no need but if it makes him and you feel better then fine. You arre one to talk about a singular example "not fitting your argument" - pot and kettles because that is exactly how you treat others who question what you say, but in most cases ignoring either sound technical explanations or as in this case huge amounts of empirical evidence that says the opposite of what you claim.

Hardly surprising that some find your approach irritating

Just to a bit more on the subject of bearing materials. When I rebuilt the keel and new rudder on my Eventide in 1992, I designed a new heel fitting for the bottom rudder bearing. I intended casting in bronze so I consulted with 2 of my university colleagues, one an expert in metals with a PhD for his study on corrosion in stainless steels and the other a well respected expert in trybology (wear and use of lubricants). Recommendation was 316 rudder stock bronze casting with top hat Delrin insert. When I dismantled it to do some repairs to the hull around the stern 25 years later both the Delrin and stock were perfect, no sign of wear. The spare bearing I had made at the time is still buried in my bits and pieces box in the garage.

The point i was making is that self aligning plastic bearings are great for builders. They are cheap and fast to install. You don't need perfect alignment in everything because the plastic bearings deal with it. They wear out faster than a precision built bronze bearings. Building a rudder with bronze bearings requires far more accurate alignment and manufacturing tolerances. The bottom line is it costs more to do. You get what you pay for.
If you sail long distance, these differences matter. If you install plastic bearings you can expect to need to replace them far more frequently than a precision engineered bronze bearings.
Production boats get away with it because most really don't go so far. Those that do have to accept a far more regular replacement regime

 

[pretzel_logic]

Some good stuff there. As I mentioned earlier, I intend to give myself a rough “cut the lines” date which will be at least a few years from now. If it’s feasible to reduce that time sensibly then great; these are current avenues I’m interested in exploring. Time flies and far too long can be spent in preparation and perhaps even wasted.

The delivery Captain work that interests me isn’t something I perceive as being done as a career change, far from it, it’s just an idea of how to top up funds at some point far down the line.

Yes, that's fair enough. You can prevaricate for years - you have to jump sometimes.

The only thing I'd say is that as soon as you start having to do it for money (to top up the funds) then it no longer becomes a fun hobby, it's work. The delivery skippers I've met never seem to do fun deliveries in the warm sunshine - but tend to do the journeys that no-one else wants to do, at the time of year that no-one else wants to sail in and in the kind of the weather that no-one else wants to be out in. Personally I'd rather have sufficient funds to survive on in the first place.

 

[Rob44]

Yes, that's fair enough. You can prevaricate for years - you have to jump sometimes.

The only thing I'd say is that as soon as you start having to do it for money (to top up the funds) then it no longer becomes a fun hobby, it's work. The delivery skippers I've met never seem to do fun deliveries in the warm sunshine - but tend to do the journeys that no-one else wants to do, at the time of year that no-one else wants to sail in and in the kind of the weather that no-one else wants to be out in. Personally I'd rather have sufficient funds to survive on in the first place.

This is the thing, what is the amount for sufficient funds, and how might they be realistically topped up once doing this as a lifestyle as opposed to a hobby?? Which pretty much takes us back to the OP.

Personally I’ve got many years left before retirement and my health is good. But will I still have that good health in 10/15/20 years from now?

There’s always going to be those who will say, quite openly and honestly “do it now” and those who say “don’t be ridiculous”, and who might know which is the correct statement?

How much odds (especially financial ones) do you stack in your favour?

Just rhetorical questions I’m pondering.

 

[ylop]

This is the thing, what is the amount for sufficient funds, and how might they be realistically topped up once doing this as a lifestyle as opposed to a hobby?? Which pretty much takes us back to the OP.

But I think that’s an impossible question for anyone here to answer. There are people who living on land would think £1400 a month remarkably frugal and those who would be delighted to have that much. Then there’s the boating costs - living on the hook is a lot cheaper than a marina but has downsides. In northern latitudes heating will be a cost whilst in the tropics keeping on top of the UV damage will be more expensive! Sailing a lot will add wear to sails, lines etc; whilst motoring will burn fuel and going nowhere might mean lots of dinghy trips or even hire cars. In some places the cost of everything is crazy, in others local produce is cheap but anything you need shipped in will be astronomical. Some boatyards are cheap and let you do the work yourself others will insist on their staff doing all work - and depending what needs done you might not have the choice of moving somewhere else.

 

[Rob44]

But I think that’s an impossible question for anyone here to answer. There are people who living on land would think £1400 a month remarkably frugal and those who would be delighted to have that much. Then there’s the boating costs - living on the hook is a lot cheaper than a marina but has downsides. In northern latitudes heating will be a cost whilst in the tropics keeping on top of the UV damage will be more expensive! Sailing a lot will add wear to sails, lines etc; whilst motoring will burn fuel and going nowhere might mean lots of dinghy trips or even hire cars. In some places the cost of everything is crazy, in others local produce is cheap but anything you need shipped in will be astronomical. Some boatyards are cheap and let you do the work yourself others will insist on their staff doing all work - and depending what needs done you might not have the choice of moving somewhere else.

You’re correct, but it’s only an impossible question to answer definitively. But that isn’t its purpose. That should also go without saying though. If it doesn’t, then that can be on me.

The interesting areas I’d hoped to read of was people’s answers and ideas and reasoning behind them, is all.

So for example, answers including/based on the points you make in this recent reply above. Or something like:

“I might buy boat M for this rough amount, but only if I can keep some form of property to rent, with boat equipped with XYZ, and then primarily locate myself around areas A & B and if funds get short I may do this, but know of people doing that.”

As a simple further example.

 

[Rob44]

I’m going to politely step away from the thread for now as it’s becoming a little too time consuming. But thanks so much to all those making the effort to DM and answer whichever way you did; it all gave me much to think about and areas to consider and I sincerely appreciate that. Hopefully I’ll be able to update any significant progression in the not too distant future as well

 

[Sea Change]

Good luck with it.
Btw, you might want to look up a book called 'Get Real, Get Gone' which represents one viewpoint from the low budget end of things.
Hope to see you back on here.

 

[Tranona]

The point i was making is that self aligning plastic bearings are great for builders. They are cheap and fast to install. You don't need perfect alignment in everything because the plastic bearings deal with it. They wear out faster than a precision built bronze bearings. Building a rudder with bronze bearings requires far more accurate alignment and manufacturing tolerances. The bottom line is it costs more to do. You get what you pay for.
If you sail long distance, these differences matter. If you install plastic bearings you can expect to need to replace them far more frequently than a precision engineered bronze bearings.
Production boats get away with it because most really don't go so far. Those that do have to accept a far more regular replacement regime

As usual all guesswork with zero evidence to support your proposition. You cannot just make claims like this without evidence to back it up. Look around you . The majority of recent boats (last 35 years or so) use non metallic rudder bearings and many sail lots of miles ( yiudon't have to make long passages to make up lots of miles!). For example I estimate that my charter boat did something like 3000 miles a year for 7 years then maybe 1000 miles a year for the next 5 years before I sold it. So well over 20000 miles. No sign of any bearing wear and the steering was as light and positive as it was when new. This is on a "cheap" boat, one of around 2000 Bavaria built that year, perhaps half of which were for the charter market doing similar mileages. It would be hardly surprising if you see a "few" boats of this type needing work on the rudder or bearings - there are a lot of them about and many do high mileages. Are you saying that bronze bearings are totally trouble free and last forever? - if so I am sure if you look hard enough not least on the PBO forum over the years you will find many queries about worn bronze bearings on rudders and often the difficulty of replacing them..

I am not sure you fully understand how self aligning bearings work otherwise you would know that "precision machined bronze" would not be suitable. This jefa.dk/products/roller-bearings/ or this shaft-seals.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Rudder_Bearings_Brochure.pdf may help. These are the two major manufacturers of rudder bearing systems. Even a non technical person will appreciate these are precision design and made systems using modern technology to solve problems rather than relying on 19th century steam engine technology. You may also appreciate that they are not cheap nor necessarily easier to engineer and fit - just better at doing the job.

Why are you unable to recognise that the designers, engineers and builders of boats by and large know more about their subject than you do? If non metallic bearings were rubbish as you claim why have they become so widely adopted? I thought I might give you a clue when I quoted my highly qualified colleagues on metals and bearings (not some bloke you met in a bar) who were telling me over 30 years ago to use water lubricated acetal for rudder bearings on a stainless stock - and after 25 years of constant use there was no wear. Of course this like your examples is a one off - except that it is now the norm rather than the type of bearing you prefer which is now very definitely not the norm. Things move on but you seem to prefer being stuck in the past and ignoring all the newer developments that contradict your beliefs. This may make you feel comfortable but is not a lot of help to those seeking advice on how to choose from what is available to them.

 

[dunedin]

The point i was making is that self aligning plastic bearings are great for builders. They are cheap and fast to install. You don't need perfect alignment in everything because the plastic bearings deal with it. They wear out faster than a precision built bronze bearings. Building a rudder with bronze bearings requires far more accurate alignment and manufacturing tolerances. The bottom line is it costs more to do. You get what you pay for.
If you sail long distance, these differences matter. If you install plastic bearings you can expect to need to replace them far more frequently than a precision engineered bronze bearings.
Production boats get away with it because most really don't go so far. Those that do have to accept a far more regular replacement regime

I’ll bet Jefa wish they had your expertise on rudder systems.

I know quite a number of boats that have been right round the world on their Jefa rudder bearings. How many times have you been round?

Not just “production yacht” brands if you look at the list - from Arcona to X Yachts including the likes of Halberg Rassey, Sirius and many others Index of /ftp/old_boat_spare_parts

 

[geem]

As usual all guesswork with zero evidence to support your proposition. You cannot just make claims like this without evidence to back it up. Look around you . The majority of recent boats (last 35 years or so) use non metallic rudder bearings and many sail lots of miles ( yiudon't have to make long passages to make up lots of miles!). For example I estimate that my charter boat did something like 3000 miles a year for 7 years then maybe 1000 miles a year for the next 5 years before I sold it. So well over 20000 miles. No sign of any bearing wear and the steering was as light and positive as it was when new. This is on a "cheap" boat, one of around 2000 Bavaria built that year, perhaps half of which were for the charter market doing similar mileages. It would be hardly surprising if you see a "few" boats of this type needing work on the rudder or bearings - there are a lot of them about and many do high mileages. Are you saying that bronze bearings are totally trouble free and last forever? - if so I am sure if you look hard enough not least on the PBO forum over the years you will find many queries about worn bronze bearings on rudders and often the difficulty of replacing them..

I am not sure you fully understand how self aligning bearings work otherwise you would know that "precision machined bronze" would not be suitable. This jefa.dk/products/roller-bearings/ or this shaft-seals.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Rudder_Bearings_Brochure.pdf may help. These are the two major manufacturers of rudder bearing systems. Even a non technical person will appreciate these are precision design and made systems using modern technology to solve problems rather than relying on 19th century steam engine technology. You may also appreciate that they are not cheap nor necessarily easier to engineer and fit - just better at doing the job.

Why are you unable to recognise that the designers, engineers and builders of boats by and large know more about their subject than you do? If non metallic bearings were rubbish as you claim why have they become so widely adopted? I thought I might give you a clue when I quoted my highly qualified colleagues on metals and bearings (not some bloke you met in a bar) who were telling me over 30 years ago to use water lubricated acetal for rudder bearings on a stainless stock - and after 25 years of constant use there was no wear. Of course this like your examples is a one off - except that it is now the norm rather than the type of bearing you prefer which is now very definitely not the norm. Things move on but you seem to prefer being stuck in the past and ignoring all the newer developments that contradict your beliefs. This may make you feel comfortable but is not a lot of help to those seeking advice on how to choose from what is available to them.

You mistakes modern boat building for quality boat building.,they aren't the same. Modern boat building for mass production isn't about making reliable and tough boats for high mileage applications. Its about engineering them to be adequate in their majority use. You charter boat will have spent most of its time motoring about from marina to marina. Its didn't do 1000nm passages or more.
It was operating entirely within the environment predicted by the designer.
If you want things to last and perform under more demanding conditions, you design them accordingly.

There are many older boats about that would suit the op. Giving a balanced view that all that is new isn't necessarily better is my goal.
As my surveyor said. Don't touch the latest mass production boats. The older models are better built.
As an engineer I value good design. It great to see the high tech race boats all arriving in Antigua for the Caribbean 600. Lots of modern machinery that super high tech and expensive. A long way from modern mass produced charter boats built to a price

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Take you round the world for £59k. Lots of money left over.

NEW LISTING - 1978 Rival 41 - SELKIE - Mark Cameron Yachts - Specialist Sail and Motorboat Brokerage

I have no association with the Broker, boat or seller.

 

[potentillaCO32]

Take you round the world for £59k. Lots of money left over.

NEW LISTING - 1978 Rival 41 - SELKIE - Mark Cameron Yachts - Specialist Sail and Motorboat Brokerage

I have no association with the Broker, boat or seller.

That is some value.