How to turn a Traditional Motorsailer into a Sailing Boat

[Refueler]

I didn’t say you had deep pockets. I said that someone else doing the same as you would need them. What do you think it would cost to find A COMPLETE REPLACEMENT RIG? I’ve worked at boatyards. Nice good quality aluminium has a high value and unwanted spars invariably get chopped up and weighed in. And I bet your replacement sails are not some baggy old bloomers for a few quid from ebay? What you have done would be, for most people, a very expensive project- hence my ‘deep pockets’ remark.

My feeling is that most owners would not do such work - not so much because of cost - but the sheer work and need to understand what they are doing.

LF - obviously has the skill and knowledge to successfully complete the mission. Something that I consider most owners do not have.

I know some will argue about my next point - but I see it everyday ...

Boatowners have changed ... years ago when I started out owning my own boat - after all my childhood and teen years of sailing Fathers and others .. the prevalence for OWN work on the boats was high.
Today though with the increased tech and change of boat designs / construction - owner work has declined and sorry to use the term - but 'cheque book' sailing seems to be more prevalent.

 

[rotrax]

I would very much like to find my deep pockets. Perhaps I need to hunt through my wardrobe, though I am somewhat astounded how some bystander should have a better knowledge of my finances than I do.

What I do have though, are two perfectly capable hands and, at least I like to think so, the intellectual capacity to put them to good use.

We have owned this boat for 14 years and I have taken her from a near derelict to a reliable cruising boat. She is, as most of her sisters, over 40 years old and on occasion something needs to be fixed or replaced, but only after I have carefully researched the needs and the market.

When I first inquired at the Watson forum, whether anyone else had weatherhelm issues, I was invariably told that I either didn't know how to sail in the first place or that I would have to buy new sails.
I didn't, not then. Instead, I faired the deadwood and rudder and our 40 years old rags worked just fine. It didn't cost the world either.

There is hardly an improvement on this boat that I didn't do myself, including installing a new engine. We have to date spent less on our boat, including the initial purchase, than others do on a mid size car or truck. To compare that to the price of a new build, never mind a one-off, has to be ignorance in the extreme.

How to make the poor thing sail can be seen in my video. If someone needs to know the necessary moment of inertia to choose a new mast from the rummage corner of the yard or an old boat going to the tip, get in touch with me. It's free.

And here I thought, the whole point of what we have done, is that (any)one could have otheir own pint-size expedition yacht and for a modest outlay.

By the bye, there is absolutely nothing miraculous about what I did, other than consequently apply the insights for which greater minds than my own had already done the heavy lifting.

Well said.

First Mate and I are fortunate to own a boat that gives us what we need from sailing/boating.

I know it is beyond the reach of many who post here, but is also an insignificant vessel compared to some other posters vessels.

I dont have your knowlege and shipwrighting skills, or indeed, the enthusiasm to get stuck in these days. I know that if I could not maintain most things on our boat we could not afford to keep it.

What I do know, and can relate to in perhaps the same way you do, is that my enjoyment of our boat is inversely proportional to how much it costs to keep it going safely and reliably!

Despite being fairly new sailors, not quite 20 years, we get about a bit and know exactly what we want.

Being outside in the cold and wet is not on the agenda.

Like Alex, First Mate would not have it!

Which, I suspect, is a stopper for many couples whose 'other halves' dont like the cold and wet and the dressing up to cope with it.

As an aside, we should be in the Galway area this coming summer should you be around for a catch up.

 

[doug748]

If you had all that dosh to spend you could even convert a speedy sailing boat into a Motorsailer.






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[Laminar Flow]

If you had all that dosh to spend you could even convert a speedy sailing boat into a Motorsailer.


View attachment 172403



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I do love these mind games. unfortunately, that is not how things work.

If one were to compare apples to apples, or in this case a 28' DWL (ours) to a 28' DWL as above, the supposedly more slippery one, fully loaded with all the gear and tankage we carry and not to mention the wheelhouse, would not likely be any quicker. In all probability, the racer model would be dragging it's transom through the water and, since it would require considerable beam for stability, would have near enough the same wetted area as our tub.

A light boat will have a higher ultimate speed, but with a decent SA/D the heavier one won't be appreciably slower in light going and at speeds approaching "classic" hull speed.

The T-keel and the twin rudders would be looking to snag every damn crab pot between Brittany and the Shetlands and the deeper draft would would preclude us from visiting some of the places we like to go, including our home port. Not to mention the greater vulnerability when grounding (I know that is not supposed to happen, but it does).

I think the main criteria for a cruising boat are, and pretty much in that order:
Seaworthiness, comfort & sea-kindliness, course keeping ability, ease of handling, speed and, finally, serviceability.
As far as I am concerned: we are close enough to that with our tub.

Best, A.

 

[flaming]

I think the main criteria for a cruising boat are, and pretty much in that order:
Seaworthiness, comfort & sea-kindliness, course keeping ability, ease of handling, speed and, finally, serviceability.
As far as I am concerned: we are close enough to that with our tub.

Best, A.

There is one requirement for a cruising boat that is considerably more important than any of those.

"Being something that your family are happy to sail with you".

And what that might be is as different as folk.

 

[dancrane]

There is one requirement for a cruising boat that is considerably more important than any of those.

"Being something that your family are happy to sail with you".

Doesn't that importance depend entirely on whether you intend/expect (or even want) to sail with family?

Not everyone (surprisingly few skippers I've known, now I think back) is burdened with the need to consider people who may be less tolerant of conventional sailing discomforts (or who may be less tolerable, themselves)...

...although it may be that those (many) skippers tried their families out as crew but discovered they weren't keen - either on the close-packed living, or the physical input involved, or the tendency for the whole living space to heel significantly for much of each passage...or possibly they were disappointed by the incipient absence of the luxury they'd hoped for aboard a yacht...

...in any case, not every skipper whose family might agree to come along, would be prepared to own a boat that prioritises their comfort over his own keener sailing preferences.

But if one does think of the happiness of relatively delicate crew members in British waters, surely a vessel that can be controlled either from outdoors or from a place insulated from chills, draughts and damp, is much likelier to be their favourite option?

Or was that your point?

 

[rotrax]

There is one requirement for a cruising boat that is considerably more important than any of those.

"Being something that your family are happy to sail with you".

And what that might be is as different as folk.

It would be a sad world if we all aspired to exactly the same things.

Our boat enables First Mate and I to live aboard, very comfortably, for up to five months in the UK and Ireland with the odd trip to Northern France.

We have, in motorsport parlance "Dialled it in" to be almost exactly what we want. Walk round bed, two large fridges, freezer, 8KW Genset, washing machine, microwave, 400W Solar, inverter and cooking equipment that can run off it or the Genset. And a new sea view every day should we want it!

As all boats are a compromise, we live with the poor sailing abilities compared to some other vessels as the benefits of enclosure, space, huge storage, 1 metre draught and easy on/off far outweigh the sailing limitations for our use.

First Mate would not be prepared to spend all summer on an aft cockpit yacht with all the dressing up and getting on/off compromises that entail with a boat of that type.

The Island Packet designer, Bob Johnson, added this model to his line up as many American sailors were turning to the 'Dark Side' and buying trawler type motorboats when they found sailing a little too demanding at a more advanced age. I think he got it about right!

 

[dancrane]

Don't gloat, Rotrax!

I reckon Bob Johnson got the design of your boat exactly right, for a far higher proportion of sailors than are prepared to concede the design's advantages.

I'll never afford one but at least I'm not in denial that it's fabulous.

 

[flaming]

...in any case, not every skipper whose family might agree to come along, would be prepared to own a boat that prioritises their comfort over his own keener sailing preferences.

But if one does think of the happiness of relatively delicate crew members in British waters, surely a vessel that can be controlled either from outdoors or from a place insulated from chills, draughts and damp, is much likelier to be their favourite option?

Or was that your point?

In my father's case he found himself wanting to buy boats with better and better performance in order to persuade me to keep sailing with him. If he'd bought an Island Packet he would have found himself struggling to convince me to come with him.

And, paradoxically, you make my point for me. Some people might find a boat insulated from chills etc to be appealing. But not everyone. Some people might want something more sprightly to sail. But not everyone.

The point is that LF fell into the same trap as ever. He described what he wants out of a cruising boat and then held it up as what everyone should want.

 

[flaming]

It would be a sad world if we all aspired to exactly the same things.

Perfectly illustrated!

I don't want one but I am delighted that you enjoy your boat.

 

[doug748]

In my father's case he found himself wanting to buy boats with better and better performance in order to persuade me to keep sailing with him. If he'd bought an Island Packet he would have found himself struggling to convince me to come with him.

And, paradoxically, you make my point for me. Some people might find a boat insulated from chills etc to be appealing. But not everyone. Some people might want something more sprightly to sail. But not everyone.

The point is that LF fell into the same trap as ever. He described what he wants out of a cruising boat and then held it up as what everyone should want.

Fair points. A lot of people ( probably most if sales are considered ), sail partly because it is an outdoor pursuit and don't want to sit inside a fair approximation of a garden shed.

But fair winds to those who do.

.

 

[flaming]

Fair points. A lot of people ( probably most if sales are considered ), sail partly because it is an outdoor pursuit and don't want to sit inside a fair approximation of a garden shed.

But fair winds to those who do.

.

There was a time when my Dad thought he might want something with an inside steering position. We went on test sails of a Southerly and the Moody Eclipse 33. Very lovely sat inside, very comfy.

At the time he had a Westerly Griffon. When we were sailing the Moody we happened to come across another Griffon. It overtook us, and at that exact instant all interest in the Moody and Southerly was lost.

And I should add, he never sailed a race in his life....

 

[rotrax]

Don't gloat, Rotrax!

I reckon Bob Johnson got the design of your boat exactly right, for a far higher proportion of sailors than are prepared to concede the design's advantages.

I'll never afford one but at least I'm not in denial that it's fabulous.

I am trying not to-honest!

She is a great boat, but the annual maintainence is becoming harder every year, so I suspect we will part with her in 2025.

If I have to pay yard bills I cant afford to keep her.

We have recently got a 10 metre berth in our club Marina, 1500 hundred a year.

The IP wont fit, so a smaller vessel will be purchased that will.

 

[Cptsideways]

We own a Finnsailer 35 similar to a Watson in some respects but a better under water profile and much better standard rudder that generally works well. I'm sure some improvement could be made to the deadwood profile though but it's certainly ok. We do have an enormous fixed prop that I know changing to folding will add a knot or two (just in gear tickover adds a couple of knots under sail!)

I'm very interested in moving the factory forestay position forward at least to the bow and possibly a bowsprit for the genoa /foresail. Then adding a inner stay to the original forestay location which his almost halfway down the foredeck lol.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Judging by the number of "Single Sailors" we come across, the apparently unique technical aspect of designing the right boat for the "happy family" seems to be the most elusive quality.
Of course anyone may sail any boat they like. However, as we are, presumably, still talking about human crews and consequently, man, his endurance, abilities and welfare becomes the measure of all things.
The ability of the human body to cope with environmental extremes and accelerations over long periods is well researched. I think it is hardly worth arguing that (even) a boat, particularly one intended for long distance and long term cruising, should be designed with this in consideration.

I base my views, and of course they are just that (mine), on some 60,000 or 70,000 offshore and coastal cruising (and ocean racing) miles as the responsible skipper. Alas, I like to think that I might have learnt a thing or two along the way. My family and especially my wife still come sailing with me. Even my brother, who tends to go green at the sight of water in a glass, went and bought a boat that incorporates many of the features found in our little ship, after he and his wife came sailing with us.

I know it must be terribly dull for a racing sailor, but for any little, fully loaded, barely over 30' long cruiser to average (!) 6 kts or better on passage, is pretty damn good in my books. To do so comfortably and safely, while racing down large quartering, occasionally breaking seas and at closer to nine knots under AP, is exceptional. She also performs very nicely, anchored up some lovely loch, on a wet and windy night.

Best, A.

 

[dancrane]

When we were sailing the Moody [Eclipse] we happened to come across another Griffon. It overtook us, and at that exact instant all interest in the Moody and Southerly was lost.

Is that true? I pity your old dad. I never really coveted an Eclipse (or a Southerly) because their designers appear to have worked so hard to keep the coachroof low, it looks like the lower helm must have a worm's eye view over the bow. But it never occurred to me the pursuit of sleekness didn't improve their sailing ability. Far better off with a full-height wheelhouse and a sailplan like Laminar's.

It's funny to read yachtsmen's reasoning and reflect that almost all seagoing professionals expect (and are granted) a sheltered helm as a basic essential comfort. Only in the amateur world could it be enviable to pay, hugely, for conditions that would put commercial seafarers on strike.
.

 

[Bajansailor]

I'm very interested in moving the factory forestay position forward at least to the bow and possibly a bowsprit for the genoa /foresail. Then adding a inner stay to the original forestay location which his almost halfway down the foredeck

That should be possible.
In the link below is a photo of a Finnsailer 35 with a bowsprit and a cutter rig.
FINNCLIPPER 34 - sailboatdata

If you compare it with what Sailboatdata says about the Finnsailer 35 (sail area 360 sq ft), the cutter only has an extra 12 sq ft of sail area (I am sure it must be more than this).
FINNSAILER 35 - sailboatdata

Yet in this brochure link they mention a total sail area of 430 sq ft.
Finnsailer 35 Brochure (Digital)

Does your boat suffer from weather helm when hard pressed under full sail? If not, and you then move the forestay further forward, she might then get lee helm.

 

[Laminar Flow]

The Finnsailer was originally conceived as a power boat. Later it was reconfigured as a motorsailer by bolting on a keel and providing her with a rig.

Before making any changes to the rig, I advise investigating the balance of the proposed rig. This is neither difficult nor does it require a lot of math.

The rudder on the Finnsailer seems quite small and overloading it might impair it's effectiveness to steer the boat in all conditions. For determining balance, I would consider doing so without the rudder.

In this context, I recommend reading up on the matter in : Dave Gerr, The Nature of Boats and Kinney, Elements of Yacht Design.

 

[Cptsideways]

She tracks beautifully with what I assume is the original sail plan, very little weather helm and (even in a huge quartering sea great) a rudder upgrade is possible though I think the huge prop is far more a hindrance.

My main issue is the genoa position for going to wind, genoa tracks are fully outboard with a large overlap, simply put the angle on the headsail can't be trimmed enough relative to the main. The picture of the cutter version in the sail data link is exactly what's needed. I'll do some asking on the finnsailer group.

I'll have a read up but having been a windsurfer all my life sailing by feel is easier than maths!

 

[dunedin]

…..

It's funny to read yachtsmen's reasoning and reflect that almost all seagoing professionals expect (and are granted) a sheltered helm as a basic essential comfort. Only in the amateur world could it be enviable to pay, hugely, for conditions that would put commercial seafarers on strike.
.

You may not have noticed but most professional seamen in their wheelhouses are on vessels propelled by engines, not sails. And generally doing it to move other people or heavy goods from point A to B.
Rather different from recreational SAILING? Plenty of wheel house motor boats available.