How Safe are Windows in the Hull

[Tranona]

Isn't that the reason for this thread - a missing hull window, 10 years old, and a boat half full of water?

Yes, but until there is more information as to what actually happened everything is speculation.

 

[lustyd]

Isn't that the reason for this thread - a missing hull window, 10 years old, and a boat half full of water?

Sorry must have missed that, do you have a link?
Even so, we’re at a total one one boat that got a bit wet. I dare say more traditional port lights have probably had issues

 

[doug748]

There was a long thread on this topic in the Motor Boat section, viz:

"Last July we noticed some cracks in the large windows to our master cabin..................the cracks, which have grown a further inch or so since that time

The windows appear to be laminated glass and so far as I can tell, the cracks are internal in whatever material is between the 2 outer glass layers. I also inspected the exterior of the windows and found what looks like failure of the bond between the windows and the hull.........."


Finally:


"I'm resurrecting this thread really as a warning to any boat owners out there with bonded windows like mine. I asked a yard with experience on Ferretti boats to check out the windows on my boat. The good news is that they think the windows on my boat will last another season without replacement so I'm going to leave replacing my windows until next winter especially as delivery of new windows is possibly upto 15 weeks

What is worrying is that the yard told me that they are seeing similar faults on other boats now and not just Ferrettis

This is an Azimut
(Photo not available)

and this a Pershing
(Photo not available)

FWIW the yard reckons this is a temperature related problem rather than a structural one. Maybe that suggests that the problem could be more prevalent in the Med than N European waters. Whatever the truth anyone contemplating buying a boat with bonded windows should have the windows thoroughly checked by a surveyor and anyone owning a boat with bonded windows should keep an eye on them"



Don't know how unsafe it was, certainly a danger to his wallet, as I recall it was expensive. Insurance refused to pay out, the yard denied responsibility, a current model Feretti.


.

 

[Pye_End]

Sorry must have missed that, do you have a link?
Even so, we’re at a total one one boat that got a bit wet. I dare say more traditional port lights have probably had issues

Saving Lives at Sea - Series 8: 6. Family

More 'traditional' port lights don't tend to rely on the seal to keep them in place. A failed seal might leak, but a lost window, unless stuffed, will gush - probably quicker than a bilge pump can cope with. The boat in question did not get 'a bit wet', but warranted the use of the larger RNLI pump to clear it. Lucky it didn't happen half way across Biscay.

 

[Concerto]

There was a long thread on this topic in the Motor Boat section, viz:

"Last July we noticed some cracks in the large windows to our master cabin..................the cracks, which have grown a further inch or so since that time

The windows appear to be laminated glass and so far as I can tell, the cracks are internal in whatever material is between the 2 outer glass layers. I also inspected the exterior of the windows and found what looks like failure of the bond between the windows and the hull.........."


Finally:


"I'm resurrecting this thread really as a warning to any boat owners out there with bonded windows like mine. I asked a yard with experience on Ferretti boats to check out the windows on my boat. The good news is that they think the windows on my boat will last another season without replacement so I'm going to leave replacing my windows until next winter especially as delivery of new windows is possibly upto 15 weeks

What is worrying is that the yard told me that they are seeing similar faults on other boats now and not just Ferrettis

This is an Azimut
(Photo not available)

and this a Pershing
(Photo not available)

FWIW the yard reckons this is a temperature related problem rather than a structural one. Maybe that suggests that the problem could be more prevalent in the Med than N European waters. Whatever the truth anyone contemplating buying a boat with bonded windows should have the windows thoroughly checked by a surveyor and anyone owning a boat with bonded windows should keep an eye on them"



Don't know how unsafe it was, certainly a danger to his wallet, as I recall it was expensive. Insurance refused to pay out, the yard denied responsibility, a current model Feretti.


.

This backs up the conversation I had in 2021 at the Southampton Boat Show with the South of France agent for Fairline motorboats. Their biggest warranty problem is leaking hull windows.

Personally I feel most of the problems about leaking hull windows is being hushed up as it affects the manufacturer, the agents, and potentially a longer term financial loss for the owner with repair/replacement outside of warranty or potential buyers realising potential problems and driving secondhand values down.

 

[Tranona]

Saving Lives at Sea - Series 8: 6. Family

More 'traditional' port lights don't tend to rely on the seal to keep them in place. A failed seal might leak, but a lost window, unless stuffed, will gush - probably quicker than a bilge pump can cope with. The boat in question did not get 'a bit wet', but warranted the use of the larger RNLI pump to clear it. Lucky it didn't happen half way across Biscay.

If that is the case from post#1 there is nothing in the video or any subsequent discussion that I can see that says what type of windows they were or how they were attached to the boat, although photos suggest there are no physical fastenings. Only that they failed and water entered the boat. It could have been a failure of the adhesive or the window broke.

 

[Tranona]

This backs up the conversation I had in 2021 at the Southampton Boat Show with the South of France agent for Fairline motorboats. Their biggest warranty problem is leaking hull windows.

Personally I feel most of the problems about leaking hull windows is being hushed up as it affects the manufacturer, the agents, and potentially a longer term financial loss for the owner with repair/replacement outside of warranty or potential buyers realising potential problems and driving secondhand values down.

it is a big leap from problems reported in one conversation about one make of boat to the idea that there is a huge problem being hushed up. Hull windows are now almost universal and tens of thousands are fitted to ocean going boats. If there really was a serious problem then the conspiritors must be doing a fantastic job to hide it, particularly as according to the doom mongers failed hull windows can lead to boats sinking. Have you heard of any?

This not to deny that there are potential problems and no doubt some remedial work has been needed on some boats but in the absence of hard evidence (better than a bar conversation with one person!) it is all speculation.

 

[Concerto]

it is a big leap from problems reported in one conversation about one make of boat to the idea that there is a huge problem being hushed up. Hull windows are now almost universal and tens of thousands are fitted to ocean going boats. If there really was a serious problem then the conspiritors must be doing a fantastic job to hide it, particularly as according to the doom mongers failed hull windows can lead to boats sinking. Have you heard of any?

This not to deny that there are potential problems and no doubt some remedial work has been needed on some boats but in the absence of hard evidence (better than a bar conversation with one person!) it is all speculation.

Would the Fairline agent have admitted the problem with hull windows if I was a buyer? Highly unlikely. He was only chatting as he was standing on the pontoon finger alongside Concerto at the show. We were chatting one morning before the show opened, so he knew I certainly knew I would never be a customer. He came aboard Concerto and complimented me of the condition she was in considering she was 41 years old at the time. He had sailed on a Fulmar in the distant past, so he enjoyed chatting. He asked me what I thought the biggest warranty problem was and I never mentioned hull windows, he volunteered it. My opinion about hull windows changed radically due to that conversation.

I feel sure over the next couple of decades the problem of leaking hull windows will become a much bigger problem for owners and secondhand buyers. It will become just like osmosiss and will cause huge reductions in secondhand values. We are also finding some of the early gel coat stripping and rebuild of hulls underwater are starting to fail and require additional work.

 

[lustyd]

Saving Lives at Sea - Series 8: 6. Family

More 'traditional' port lights don't tend to rely on the seal to keep them in place. A failed seal might leak, but a lost window, unless stuffed, will gush - probably quicker than a bilge pump can cope with. The boat in question did not get 'a bit wet', but warranted the use of the larger RNLI pump to clear it. Lucky it didn't happen half way across Biscay.

My traditional windows rely on two plastic clips to keep them closed, and a couple of hinges on which the pins work their way out over time. I’ve definitely seen plenty of the clips failed on various boats.

 

[lustyd]

I feel sure over the next couple of decades the problem of leaking hull windows will become a much bigger problem for owners and secondhand buyers

I think we’re all in agreement there. The difference is you think it’s a design problem while we recognise it mostly being caused by a lack of maintenance. Old boats have issues and need maintenance. Nothing has changed there. You’ve done an enormous amount of work on Concerto, I find it hard to believe you don’t think it was necessary to put that effort in for anything but aesthetic purposes.

 

[awol]

As you see the opening post was from an owner of a 40 year old boat with a known aversion to anything boat wise built since then.

As the OP I absolutely refute that assertation - I may not wax lyrical on things boat wise that have tickled my fancy but I can assure anyone who cares that they exist and I appreciate their attractions. What Tranona has never been able to accept is that in a Yachting Monthly objective comparison of a Contessa 32 vs what was then the latest Bavaria 30ish, the CO32 won comprehensively despite the obvious dated design features - he rubbished the result based mainly on his fixation with the toilet facilities, a shortcoming that I (and YM) believe is more than compensated for by other features.
I do like the idea of a "design life" for window adhesives! I'd love to read the design file.

 

[noelex]

My traditional windows rely on two plastic clips to keep them closed, and a couple of hinges on which the pins work their way out over time. I’ve definitely seen plenty of the clips failed on various boats.

Boat windows/hatches are expensive, but in many cases the quality of the material and the long term waterproof sealing, particularly for green water in offshore conditions, is not the most reliable. I am not sure why the market accepts these shortcomings.

 

[boomerangben]

Yes, of course it is. That doesn’t indicate a design issue though it demonstrates how poor owners are at maintenance.
The fact that we’ve seen essentially zero failures after decades demonstrates that we don’t need mechanical fixings. Show me a failure within the deign life of the adhesive and then maybe we can talk design issues. Whether mechanically fixed or not the adhesive sealant needs replacing regularly or water will enter the boat. I imagine the reported failures had leaked before total failure but we’ll never know.

It all depends on what the design brief was. If was for a hull window that was good for 20 years and they fail at 10, then it’s a design flaw. If the designer said the windows will need replacing after 10 years, then it’s a maintenance flaw. If no guidance are given to owners……

 

[Tranona]

As the OP I absolutely refute that assertation - I may not wax lyrical on things boat wise that have tickled my fancy but I can assure anyone who cares that they exist and I appreciate their attractions. What Tranona has never been able to accept is that in a Yachting Monthly objective comparison of a Contessa 32 vs what was then the latest Bavaria 30ish, the CO32 won comprehensively despite the obvious dated design features - he rubbished the result based mainly on his fixation with the toilet facilities, a shortcoming that I (and YM) believe is more than compensated for by other features.
I do like the idea of a "design life" for window adhesives! I'd love to read the design file.

You have a very selective memory. My objection to the comparative "test" was that they were not "comparable" boats being aimed at very different markets and types of buyers. The only commonality was the notional hull length. The scoring chart was biased towards older boats, not surprising as it was constructed largely by a person who then owned a Contessa 32. Anyway even accepting the bias the small difference in total score (it was not "comprehensive - only 3 or 4 points out of 100) would have been eliminated if the revised model Bavaria (which I did indeed buy) had been tested as it corrected a number of shortcomings of the earlier one that was used.

I remember saying at the time if they had used say an Elan 331 which was aimed at a similar market there would have been no contest by any objective measure.

 

[lustyd]

It all depends on what the design brief was. If was for a hull window that was good for 20 years and they fail at 10, then it’s a design flaw. If the designer said the windows will need replacing after 10 years, then it’s a maintenance flaw. If no guidance are given to owners……

Traditional windows often leak after 10 years so if you’re looking for maintenance free, windows aren’t a good place to look. There are no boat windows designed for 20 year maintenance free life. Nor rigging, engines, ropes, pretty much anything on the boat in fact.

 

[Tranona]

It all depends on what the design brief was. If was for a hull window that was good for 20 years and they fail at 10, then it’s a design flaw. If the designer said the windows will need replacing after 10 years, then it’s a maintenance flaw. If no guidance are given to owners……

I don't think there is a design brief that specifies a number of years of life. There are simply so many variables that affect ultimate life of boat structures and equipment. How do you give "guidance" that is in any way meaningful when there is no experience to base it on?

While bonded in windows have been a feature on many boats for over 20 years, pretty sure the materials used now will be different so like investments past performance is not a guide to the future. It is clear that all production builders have confidence in the concept as they all use it. Think of the numbers. Just take one builder, Hanse who make over 1000 boats a year for their various brands, most of which have at least 6 windows in the hull and a similar number in the coachroof. So in the last 10 years probably 100000 bonded in windows. Would they (and all the other builders) still be doing this if there was a high level of failure? Is it possible as some suggest there is a big cover up going on and buyers spending literally 100s of £k on a new boat being misled?

 

[noelex]

Would they (and all the other builders) still be doing this if there was a high level of failure? Is it possible as some suggest there is a big cover up going on and buyers spending literally 100s of £k on a new boat being misled?

I think you have an optimistic view of how production boatbuilders solve warranty issues.

Talk to, for example, Leopard catamaran owners about their window security and how this issue has been handled by the factory. This is just an example.

 

[Concerto]

My traditional windows rely on two plastic clips to keep them closed, and a couple of hinges on which the pins work their way out over time. I’ve definitely seen plenty of the clips failed on various boats.

The difference between your traditional windows and modern hull windows is that your windows will be a framed window that bolts on the surface of the hull, not a window that is stuck in a recess by glue alone. The recess may make the window surface flush with the hull and make it look smooth, but actually makes it very difficult to get to the bonding if there is a problem plus the dual problem of damaging the window and difficulty in obtaining a replacement as it was not a flat panel and requires to be matched in shape to the original.

With your windows, you can easily see if there is a problem with the clips and most likely can make an instant repair from the tools onboard. With regard to the hinge pins coming loose, that is partially a design fault with the indow that couls easily be fixed with the addition of a screw in the hinge body securely fixed against a small hollow in the pin.

 

[matt1]

The difference between your traditional windows and modern hull windows is that your windows will be a framed window that bolts on the surface of the hull, not a window that is stuck in a recess by glue alone. The recess may make the window surface flush with the hull and make it look smooth, but actually makes it very difficult to get to the bonding if there is a problem plus the dual problem of damaging the window and difficulty in obtaining a replacement as it was not a flat panel and requires to be matched in shape to the original.

But this isn’t correct for all hull windows and is quite an assumption / generalisation. For instance Hanse’s hull ports are made by Lewmar and have an inner frame / flange. They are both glued and mechanically fixed to the hull. As a long time lurker on their owners forum I dread to think how many posts I’ve read over the years but only one of them concerned a leaking hull port and that was in a new boat.

 

[Supertramp]

There are two points coming out of this thread for me.

One is the limited life of plastics, sealants and adhesives. Doubtless affected by the environment and use. No adhesive supplier or boat manufacturer can predict aging with any accuracy leading to fallbacks like "replace every 10 years". However there are no doubt big variations between brands and types of adhesives and sealants.

The second is the incorporation of large windows in the hull structure. It's a design choice, much like any other aspect of a yacht. Is it any different to the design decisions and construction of rudder and keel or the layup of the hull?

Whether they are safe or not is really down to the owner choice of what they want and how they will use it. I suspect they are properly and responsibly constructed in the factory. I bet they will become a topic for forum threads in 20 or 30 years time alongside all the myriad of topics those of us with age challenged boats enjoy.