How much chain? No windlass.

[onesea]

4t boats no windlass 5' draft.

Present set up 20m Chain and 50m warp. Which has always been suitable in anchorages in the Solent area (small tidal range)...

However once out into bigger tidal ranges, I find once all the chain is on the bottom and she is on warp she sails around considerably even in benign conditions.

Weight is a consideration for lifting and to some extent trim and cost.

Questions:
Main question how much chain and what size/ grade?
For UK sailing area, are there any rules of thumb?
Should I just buy extra chain and use a chain link?


Secondary question (out of budget at moment) the costs and considerations of fitting a windlass?
Separate Battery? Cables? Presently on lead acid batteries not planning on changing soon.
We have the standard triangular chain locker on bow, happy to lift anchor in and out due to home berthing setup.

I have not looked into any of this in depth, asking first to find out what others are doing / using.

 

[johnalison]

We found this to be a problem when we moved up from a 26' boat to a Sadler 29. I think we had 15m of chain and the rest line. Since virtually all our anchoring was in shallow water I never did anything about it, other than lowering a weighty shackle down the line to keep it below the fin keel. I got the impression the the chief cause of the boat's restlessness was the furling jib's windage, along with the higher prow.

 

[Stemar]

Jazzcat is around 5T in ready to go trim. We have 10M of chain and the rest rope, and it's fine, even though she's a cat. Setting up a bridle is on my to-do list but it isn't a priority.

I'd be inclined to go for as much chain as you can comfortably pull up (don't forget the weight of your anchor!) and lots of rope - one that doesn't float. When deciding that, it's worth remembering that things get heavier as you get older (It really is increasing weight, nothing to do with getting feeble )

As for a windlass, I didn't have one on my previous boat, but do on Jazzcat. The gypsy handles the rope and chain fine but, with a shallow anchor locker, I have to have the locker open and pull the rope out from under the windlass as it comes in, or it jams up. I have it wired from the domestic batteries, but if I were starting from scratch, I'd be inclined to give it its own battery with a B to B charger, as the smaller cables will probably be easier to install.

 

[pmagowan]

Never had a problem with all chain on a 28ft and a 38ft without using manual windlass. The chain is supported by water so obviously not as ‘heavy’ as on land. Unless you anchor in crazy depths then you only have the length of chain relative to the depth to haul in, the rest is lying happily on the bottom. If stuck use a line, hook and any other winch on board to haul in the first bit. Breaking free is the bit that requires strength but you can do this by over riding the anchor

 

[bignick]

10mm chain is about 2.3 kg/m. 20m would be 46kg. Add a 10kg anchor and you’re at 56kg, which in water would equate to about 49 kg.
How fit and strong are you feeling? Can you lift that off the bottom comfortably on a moving boat?

 

[zoidberg]

Simply add another length of warp when needed.
You can take the warp back to a cockpit sheet winch and do most of the work from there.

Oh, and there's no need for v.heavy 10mm chain. High-test Grade 80 6mm chain is about 0.8kg/metre. Ask Jon Neeves....

FWIW, 30m. of Grade 80 galv chain weight-in-water about 21kg. My Fortress Fx-16 is under 5kg. I chose between doing my back in, or doing my wallet in....

 

[B27]

Benign conditions, use a shorter rode?
If it blows, set a second anchor?

 

[B27]

10mm chain is about 2.3 kg/m. 20m would be 46kg. Add a 10kg anchor and you’re at 56kg, which in water would equate to about 49 kg.
How fit and strong are you feeling? Can you lift that off the bottom comfortably on a moving boat?

Isn't 10mm chain a little OTT for a 4T boat?

Masses of chain in the bow of a 4T boat isn't great.

 

[Sea Change]

10mm chain is about 2.3 kg/m. 20m would be 46kg. Add a 10kg anchor and you’re at 56kg, which in water would equate to about 49 kg.
How fit and strong are you feeling? Can you lift that off the bottom comfortably on a moving boat?

Unless something goes very badly wrong, the most weight you will have to lift is the depth of the water plus the anchor.
I routinely lift my 10mm chain and 25kg anchor by hand. If anchored in 10m or less it's no big deal.
I do have a windlass, horizontal axis. I have to go down below to flick the breaker, and in benign conditions I simply don't bother to use it. But when pulling up by hand, the gypsy makes a perfect place to lock off the chain. I think if I had to bend down and wrap it around a cleat, it would be a different story.

 

[johnalison]

Never had a problem with all chain on a 28ft and a 38ft without using manual windlass. The chain is supported by water so obviously not as ‘heavy’ as on land. Unless you anchor in crazy depths then you only have the length of chain relative to the depth to haul in, the rest is lying happily on the bottom. If stuck use a line, hook and any other winch on board to haul in the first bit. Breaking free is the bit that requires strength but you can do this by over riding the anchor

I like your thinking. With steel at +/- 8x the density of water, that means that the chain's weight is reduced by a whole 12% or so, which must be a greater encouragement to your crew, to whom I assume you delegate such menial tasks.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I like your thinking. With steel at +/- 8x the density of water, that means that the chain's weight is reduced by a whole 12% or so, which must be a greater encouragement to your crew, to whom I assume you delegate such menial tasks.

Ha ha. My ‘crew’ has delegated that task to me, she drives. We have 10m of 8mm chain and a 12 I think kg Spade. It’s fine to pull up by hand, especially with a kind soul on the helm. Slowly forwards til its up and down, onto cleat for a moment while she guns it, the job is done. The trick is not to haul the boat up to the anchor by hand and exhaust yourself.

 

[Tranona]

4t boats no windlass 5' draft.

Present set up 20m Chain and 50m warp. Which has always been suitable in anchorages in the Solent area (small tidal range)...

However once out into bigger tidal ranges, I find once all the chain is on the bottom and she is on warp she sails around considerably even in benign conditions.

Weight is a consideration for lifting and to some extent trim and cost.

Questions:
Main question how much chain and what size/ grade?
For UK sailing area, are there any rules of thumb?
Should I just buy extra chain and use a chain link?


Secondary question (out of budget at moment) the costs and considerations of fitting a windlass?
Separate Battery? Cables? Presently on lead acid batteries not planning on changing soon.
We have the standard triangular chain locker on bow, happy to lift anchor in and out due to home berthing setup.

I have not looked into any of this in depth, asking first to find out what others are doing / using.

You don't say what size anchor and chain you have, but a 10kg anchor with 6mm chain is more than adequate. 50 or 60m all chain would be my choice as much easier to handle and stow plus you get some benefit from catenary to dampen the movement of the boat.

As to a windlass. That depends in part on the layout of your foredeck and anchor locker for the windlass itself and your electrical system if you decide to go electric. There are really only 2 manual windlasses on the market and they are nearly as expensive as the basic electric, but of course installation of electric can double the cost in hardware alone. A manual is around £800, electric closer to £1k plus approx £500 for installation. Second hand manuals come up quite often as people swap to electric.

 

[Refueler]

My 4t boat has chain backed up by 'reserve' warp in event depth is greater than usual I anchor in .. I try to anchor in relatively shallow but safe waters ... rarely having to resort to the warp.
I have a Royal manual windlass on foredeck - and I only use it for lowering / raising mast .. too slow for anchor work.

Slewing on warp ... its one of the reasons I hate anchor warps .....

You may be able to reduce it a bit by sliding a heavy weight down the warp burying maybe 1/3rd depth ??

Deploy a drogue of the stern ?

 

[johnalison]

Ha ha. My ‘crew’ has delegated that task to me, she drives. We have 10m of 8mm chain and a 12 I think kg Spade. It’s fine to pull up by hand, especially with a kind soul on the helm. Slowly forwards til its up and down, onto cleat for a moment while she guns it, the job is done. The trick is not to haul the boat up to the anchor by hand and exhaust yourself.

There's a fair bit of technique involved in the whole business. I managed the 25lb CQR on our Sadler easily enough but our friends had the wife pulling up their 35lb CQR for many years, with all chain, and she is of average build only. I haven't even thought about hauling up our current 45lb anchor without the windlass.

 

[Sea Change]

If it blows, set a second anchor?

You may be able to reduce it a bit by sliding a heavy weight down the warp burying maybe 1/3rd depth ??

Deploy a drogue of the stern ?

I'm not a big fan of complicated setups. Weights and second anchors can be very useful, but when it's 3am and the boat in front of you is dragging, you need to be able to move quickly.

 

[Refueler]

I'm not a big fan of complicated setups. Weights and second anchors can be very useful, but when it's 3am and the boat in front of you is dragging, you need to be able to move quickly.

True ... no argument there .... but a drogue is purely a canvas tapered tube on end of a rope ...

To recover quickly - you have a light tripping line attached to its narrow end ... so when you want to recover it - pull that - not the main line which will only make the drogue fight you. Pulling the light line turns the drogue and it then folds and comes in easy ..

 

[Bristolfashion]

We have 30m 7mm chain and 50m 12 line. Works extremely well for us (also on a Sadler 29).

 

[thinwater]

Consider using a loop of chain as a kellet. Free to try, if you can find ~ 20 feet of old chain.

• Reduces sailing at anchor. That said, there are many ways to reduce sailing--read up on it.
• Comes over the roller without detaching. Just a attach it with a Prusik knot and a sling.

I like all chain and have it on my PDC cat, but you need a windlass. I have combination rode on my trimaran.

Another method to reduce yawing is to drop a second anchor with just enough rode to reach the bottom and drag but not really set. Quite easy. Not a pivoting fluke anchor. Something like a Bruce or plow.

 

[Bodach na mara]

I used to have a similar arrangement on a superannuated six-metre.15 fathoms of 1/4 inch chain was all I could afford and to cope with the depths in anchorages in the Western Isles we carried 30 fathoms of rope that someone was throwing out. It worked fine for us but scared the sh1t out of owners of posh boats in crowded anchorages. After a few unfriendly conversations we took to using the less-favoured places at least until I found another 30 fathoms of 1/4 inch chain dumped on a beach.

I was younger then and never saw a windlass on a boat less than 40 feet. We seldom had a problem hauling in unless we fouled something.

 

[onesea]

What are the forum views of these?
Trem Chain Quick Link - Galvanised Chain Link
Work of devil or they are fine. I had one installed on a previous boat but was not concerned as chain was over sized.

@zoidberg @Tranona I Appreciate the high tensile chain at 6mm however 8mm is comfortable to grip same goes for following warp. However a trip to the chandlers is required to confirm.

@Tranona I had not mentioned Anchor sizes as I didn't want an anchor thread (9kg Knox bought on forum and it fits in locker and on bow for short hops).
I also have Fortress FX16 kedge (X Bow anchor) with similar rode amounts.

Anchor windlass is now on hold following reading comments here, electric not in budget manual to slow.

If required chain hook and jib sheet winch. I have never had problem heaving anchor even single handed, as other have said there is a knack

The reason for asking about chain connectors is cost.

Regarding weights and second anchors for me I like simplicity and a smaller swinging circle, extra complications I don't need.

Long keel boat with large cutaway on bow, roller headsail no spray dodger aft she sails around nicely.

I am leaning to 40m or 50m 8mm chain plus 50m rode.

Due to ease off handling however I need to handle some 6mm and appropriate warp for comparison then it would be 60m given the weight saving.