How much anchor chain?

[doug748]

I have c 45m of 8mm chain on a roughly similar boat. The only times I have had to shackle on extra rope is around the Bay of St Malo.
It fits in my modest chain locker with enough room for a 10 kilo anchor, snubber and mooring line on top.

 

[jwilson]

I would not be weighing the bow of a lightish fastish 30 ft boat down with a lot of chain, especially if you are normally anchoring in mud, for which a Danforth is very good indeed. I'd add maybe 5 metres of 8mm chain and have around 50 metres of nylon warp if you don't have that much already.

If you put as much heavy chain in the bows as some are suggesting you'll seriously affect the performance of a First 30. In mud or sand a Danforth on a long nylon warp is light and very effective. On rock or weedy bottoms it's rubbish. I used to carry a Danforth and about 3 metres of chain plus lots of warp as main anchor for the 95% mud/sand situation, and a cheap but bigger Fisherman stowed below for the very few places with kelp or stony bottoms. Shingle is the absolute worst bottom to anchor on, almost nothing holds there.

 

[vyv_cox]

I have never had less than 50 metres of 8 mm chain on any boat: first was 27 ft, then 29 ft, finally 34 ft. All three have been known for sailing performance and I cannot say that the weight of chain had a significant effect on this. The 27 ft boat, Irish Sea based where anchoring is the norm, came to me with 50 metres of chain and I saw no reason to change it.
Nowadays 8 mm on a 27 ft boat might be seen as OTT but at the time was perfectly common.

 

[Crinan12]

A way to avoid a windlass in a boat like the OP’s, with say 6mm chain, is to fit a pawl over the bow roller. Weighs no more than half a kilo at most and makes getting chain by hand much easier. Flick the pawl off to let chain out, flick it on to haul in. Had one (with 6mm chain) on a boat a bit smaller than the OP’s. Brilliant gadget, but you will have to get it made or make it yourself.

Incidentally, there is no reason to keep the chain in the bow, unless you have a windlass. I stored mine where it did some good.

Hi kukri
I was just curious as to what you meant by 'where it did some good'. Where do you keep yours ?
I've just bought a new anchor and it won't fit in my anchor locker and I was thinking about where I will keep it .
Would it be silly to keep the anchor elsewhere on the boat and simply shackle it onto the chain each time I want to use it?
Thanks

 

[RichardS]

To elaborate on our collective wisdom would anyone like to comment on the reasons behind suggesting the OP invest of 50m of 8mm chain (for what I believe is a yacht with a performance pedigree)?

Jonathan

I suggested 50m of 6mm chain simply because I trust chain more than rope and that would weigh only 40kg which cannot be too much of an issue, surely?

Richard

 

[Kukri]

Hi kukri
I was just curious as to what you meant by 'where it did some good'. Where do you keep yours ?
I've just bought a new anchor and it won't fit in my anchor locker and I was thinking about where I will keep it .
Would it be silly to keep the anchor elsewhere on the boat and simply shackle it onto the chain each time I want to use it?
Thanks

Different boat now; much bigger. In the boat in question, 45 metres of 6mm chain in a stout plastic container just ahead of the mast, with a chain pipe on deck above it. Weight now useful ballast!

Anchor (always securely shackled to chain) on wooden chocks just ahead of the mast.

Some fully crewed racing boats keep their anchors in a locker below and shackle them on - I think the Clipper Ventures fleet do and when I bought my boat from the JSASTC that was where hers was. It isn’t there now.

I think that on a cruiser your anchor should always be ready to drop but it doesn’t need to be in the roller. In that boat the 6mm chain was always in the roller because of the pawl, but it was led back on deck to the anchor. To anchor, cast off anchor lashing, pick up anchor, drop anchor overboard...

Edited to add - found a picture:

You can see the anchor lashed on the foredeck with the chain pipe just ahead of the forehatch.

 

[NormanS]

Hi kukri
I was just curious as to what you meant by 'where it did some good'. Where do you keep yours ?
I've just bought a new anchor and it won't fit in my anchor locker and I was thinking about where I will keep it .
Would it be silly to keep the anchor elsewhere on the boat and simply shackle it onto the chain each time I want to use it?
Thanks

It depends on how much and how often you anchor. We anchor every night, and sometimes several times a day, so for us it's essential to have it ready on the bow roller. Horses for courses.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

In Scotland my parents Kingfisher 20+ had full chain and a pipe down into the forepeak. The Vega (27ft) had full chain too. I was the windlass.

My boat is 36ft and has 60m of 8mm chain, windlass and anchor on the roller (110Kg). It also has 150l water tanks under the forward berth and often a 40 Kg dinghy on the foredeck - then add two sleepers in the forecabin (140Kg) plus all the other stuff under the berths (40Kg) and I've got 480Kg forward of the mast. I honestly don't notice any great difference in the sailing ability if the tanks are full or not, if the dinghy is there or not, or if there are people sleeping in the forecabin or not.

What I do appreciate at night is the peace of mind I get knowing that I'm anchored on all chain with plenty of scope and a good anchor.

Don't skimp on ground tackle - get the best you can afford - a First 30 weighs 3,500-3,750Kg empty? ... what difference is 100Kg on the bow really going to make?

 

[lw395]

We find our boat goes noticeably better with our 20kg CQR and 10m of chain taken off the bow and stowed below.

A rope rode can be plenty strong enough.
Having to heve up 30m of chain by hand can really put people off of anchoring. Which is a shame as you lose out on stopping in nice places.
Anchoring with chain is a lot more faff to do properly, as you need to deploy snubbers if there's any weather.

Personally I would suggest that if the OP has only a Danforth, his money would be best spent on a short length of chain and maybe an alternative anchor, unless his budget stretches to an electric windlass and any overhaul of his electrical system needed to support that.

If you must have a chain rode for your main anchor, and no windlass, I'd suggest getting a nice little Fortress, some light chain and plenty of string as a 'lunch hook'.

 

[Boathook]

I have 20m of 8mm chain and about 50m plus of 14mm diameter 3 strand nylon spliced on. I have a 16kg Rocna on the other end of the chain plus an electric windlass to haul it all in. The anchor and chain is right at my limit of lift so the windlass gets plenty of use. I do also have an angel / chum to drop down the anchor rope if required, to reduce yawing.

 

[Refueler]

You will get two schools on this and is always good for a laugh ...

The "I use rope" and the "I use chain' regimes.

As an ex Ships guy and played on yachts all my life - I sit firmly in the chain camp. There's something comforting about knowing that chain is out there ....

Anchoring actually works on the principle of chain holds the boat ... anchor holds the chain.

But I do agree with the chain / rope combos which I have on my boat. I anchor in all sorts of locations ... and only ever dragged once ... that was in the river where a hard bottom section is and nothing but a big block would work.

I have 30m of 8mm chain and 20m of 12mm plait rope.... 12kg Holdfast anchor. She's a 4 ton boat.

I reckon to put out over 3x as a short stay .... but 6x depth long stay ... yep - better be safe than sorry.

I have a windlass but never use it ... I just don a good pair of gloves and hand haul in ...

 

[Neeves]

In Australia the ambition for many is to visit 'The Reef', there is an annual pilgrimage every year up and then down the east coast of people escaping the cold of a Sydney or Melbourne winter. Coral eats nylon overnight, coral rubble has less of an appetite but can still be hungry - so all chain is de rigour. If you anchor in locations with rocks or stones - then rope will suffer from abrasion.

The OP has a flighty 30' yacht - we don't know how he is going to use the yacht - but it was built and sold, primarily, as a racing yacht - and 100kg in the bows, or 50kg, will destroy its sailing ability. If I were sailing her I would use 6mm chain, perfectly strong enough, maybe 20m and extend the rode with nylon and keep the whole lot in a milk crate down on the cabin sole all packed. The rode could be easily carried to the bow, it will weight maybe 20kg. If I was not going to race I'd carry 50m of 6mm chain and I'd store it in the bow locker with the anchor on the bow roller. 8mm chain is simply overkill on a 3t yacht. 8mm - it is sufficiently strong you could lift the whole yacht out of the water using it (though I would not stand anywhere nearby - nor seriously suggest it as an option (its at the limit of the chain strength).

If you don't think 100kg in the bow will destroy this yacht's sailing ability - ponder the fact that all, serious, racing yachts with the exception of Clipper carry Fortress (to a lessor extent Guardian) without exception. All racing yachts carry a minimal length of chain, at most 10m and the rest of the rode is rope. And if you are still in doubt - try sailing to windward with one of your crew on the bow - and watch your speed drop. We raced our X99 in HK and won the Channel Handicap trophy 3 years in a row - and I know weight matters (you need it on the side - not in the bow).

Many of us will comment that catenary is a bit of a myth, or its correct but not of much value - if you use snubbers - and this applies as much to a modern 30' yacht as a modern 45' yacht - you can replace the energy absorbing characteristics so much better with a snubber than you can with chain.

So why this emphasis on carrying the weight of 8mm chain in the bow, on a lightweight flighty yacht, (and for many of the same people to accept that catenary is a bit of a myth) - its contradictory.

The idea that chain adds any significant benefit to 'hold' of a yacht is nonsense - and if you still believe it - wait till the wind blows 20 knots and all the chain is off the seabed - tell me then that chain adds to the hold for the yacht. If you cannot wait for the 20 knot wind - deploy your chain without the anchor - now tell me the chain adds to hold - its nonsense.

The chain joins the anchor to the yacht, it is abrasion resistant (much more so than rope) and it stops the yacht wandering about in light wind. The anchor holds the yacht in place. That's it.

6mm will be plenty strong enough, easy to retrieve by hand, costs less than 8mm chain, takes up less room, can be stored below and carried easily and safely to the bow when needed.

Now tell me, and the OP, the benefits of 8mm over 6mm.

Jonathan

 

[NormanS]

Jonathan, why don't you anchor with wire?

 

[RupertW]

We all know the perfect rode is infinitely thin, infinitely strong piano wire but that’s not abrasion resistant so the strongest lightest chain is a good compromise.

 

[Neeves]

Jonathan, why don't you anchor with

It is not a silly suggestion and Classification Societies approve. I have seen an Italian Fishery Protection vessel with an all wire rode. Danforth used to supply one of their anchors with a wire trace and the unusual XYZ was originally supplied, in its short lived life, with a wire trace.

I did look at the idea - you would need to use a drum winch to retrieve and wire really does not lend itself to hand retrieval - if the winch/windlass fails (and who has not had a recalcitrant windlass).

The problems are the swage, attachment of the snubber/bridle and which wire? I could live with the swage (regular replacement) but the (critical) means to attach a snubber remains unsolved as does what do you make the wire from.

The advantage of wire is very simple - it allows the anchor to set more deeply and a deeply set anchor offers more security or reliability. Large chain, swivels, especially large swivels, over sized shackles all hamper the anchor's ability to set and set deeply - its not original, Danforth recognised the issue. I've tested the issue, including wire - you can make real improvements in the hold developed of your anchor. The oil industry recognises the issue - and they, I - and some others, some using G70, have downsized the chain and replaced conventional chain with higher tensile product, historically G70 but now G80 nd G100, as the current 'best' option. The other motivation is, of course, the weight and space saving (though space saving was not actually an issue with us).

There have been problems with the galvanising of G70 which has cast something of a shadow over G70 - but the issues seem restricted to one European supplier and appears to be a galvanising issue and nothing to do with the production of a G70 rode. For example - no-on e complain of the galvanising of Peerless or Campbell G70.

And as another aside - arranging to make it myself meant I finished with a 6mm product with the same Ultimate Tensile Strength of the 8mm it replaced - and it was cheaper than a G30 8mm chain and comes with matching components, that fit and are of the same strength. What's not to like

With developments in the galvanising of HT steels coupled with improvements in the manufacture of HT chain it is now possible to galvanise a 6mm chain with the same strength of a 10mm G30.

Not wire - but getting close

There is another option and that is Dyneema - the big issue is that Dyneema floats - though this can be overcome by incorporating lead into the rope - it has been done but I have not heard of how it has worked (or not).

Watch this space.....

Jonathan

And picking up on Rupert's point - Higher tensile steels are harder than lower tensile steels - so G80 ir harder than G30. Abrasion resistance is a function of hardness - and HT steels are more abrasion resistant than lower strength steels. Advantageously the galvanising process Thermal Diffusion Galvanising, TDG, that I have been using produces a galvanised coating that is harder than convention Hot Dipped Galvanising, so is more abrasion resistant - and I have tested for this. Finally the HDG process is notoriously difficult to control the coating thickness and some of the coating is soft Zinc - but TDG has no zinc outer coating, the coating is all alloy - and coatings appear to be achieved plus or minus 5 microns. I'm claiming no originality - the US Navy uses the same process I use - but my specification is for a 100 micron coating, theirs is only 80 micron. They claim to save billions of $, I just wanted a technically better product.

 

[Sprout]

Thank you all for replying - a lot to think about there. Yes, the boat is lightweight / performance biased, and I don’t want to wreck the sailing performance by keeping excess, over-sized chain in the bow locker so there’s a lot here for me to consider before I hit the chandlery. Thanks for your generous and detailed replies - I’ll post back with what I ended up doing.

 

[Sprout]

I’m not far from Zierikzee so that’s interesting to know. I spent most of last year dodging the shallow bits so hadn’t spotted that any of the Oosterschelde was particularly deep - I shall go back and check my charts!

 

[temptress]

All depends on how deep the water is and what conditions you anchor in. I usually work off a 3 to 5 times the depth at high water for chain and 5 to 10 times if on rode with nominally 10m chain. (anchor scope is no use unless used but you need the swinging room to use it so take care of you neighbours)

We live on the hook. For the last couple of days we have been anchored in 10 to 11m of water in f4 to F5. Getting gusts of up to F8 (but mostly 7). We have 55m of chain out and are very comfortable.

So imo decide the maximum depth that you are likely to anchor in, times by 5 for chain and 10 for rope then add 30‰ for good measure.

Whave 130m of chain for the bower, 30m chain plus 150m rode for the second and 7m chain plus 200m rode for the kedge.

 

[simonfraser]

if you want your chain to last, store it dry and preferably get the salt off.
dumping a load of wet rope on top is not going to help.

 

[Refueler]

Dear Jonathan ....

So much of what you say about racing is true ... I also am ex racing ... won the Baltic Regatta as example ...

But when it comes to the physical of anchoring - you are talking rubbish.

The length of chain out is designed to create a curve that its weight when boat is snatching or being driven resists boat ... the anchor is there to hold the chain.

It may surprise you to hear that even ships have brought in their anchor chain and found anchor missing ! Happened to a few ships that called in Indian ports due to using anchor chain for mooring ... therein are some stories !

The major problem with yachts - especially more modern designs - the windage vs weight. As yachts became lighter for size - and greater windage - so the anchoring loads changed. My 1970's 4ton 25ft motor sailer will ride anchor better than a modern 30ft yacht despite its smaller size. The lighter greater windage yacht will snatch and tug on that anchor rode quite sharply at times.

I agree that 6mm chain is enough in strength but anchoring and peace of mind says 'weight' ... there's no substitute.

Why do you think general advice is for greater rode to be paid out for rope than chain ? That is just trying to make up for lack of chain weight in the catenary.

I would much rather lay to my chain and anchor in a blow than any rope rode you lay out ... no matter how much you use ...