How many of us actually have MOB or locator beacons?

[KeithMD]

On another website, I've just seen a suggestion that people should fly flags upside down to indicate a vessel in distress. This was posted as an alternative to using the VHF radio and (hopefully) just making a Pan Pan call. Before escalating to a mayday call if necessary. One reply questioned whether anyone else, from any distance, would ever notice what way up a flag was flying. The original poster didn't like that reply and doubled-down with this response.

if I were in difficulties on a yacht and my radio had failed (and I'd been daft enough to sail without a locator beacon) I'd certainly fly the red duster upside down and hopefully anyone with any nautical knowledge (such as a Coastguard) would know what it meant.

I've underlined the part that got me wondering. The original poster clear has a strong opinion, and I didn't want to start a flame war. It's been a few years since I last equipped a yacht with safety equipment to charter standards, so perhaps I'm the one that's out-of-touch. Outside of commercial vessels and racing yachts, how many people actually have them on board? I only mean having the equipment, actual use is a seperate topic.

My same out-of-touchness applies to training courses. Way back (20 years+) when I did my training, the MOB routine consisted of rehearsing the MOB with a fender thrown overboard and then the recovery. VHF was mentioned, locator beacons not mentioned at all. But that was 20+ years ago. What level of RYA course and qualification does one now have to reach before it becomes (a) even mentioned (b) an optional extra or (c) mandatory?

 

[dunedin]

We have two PLBs and three lifejackets with MOB AIS devices - as sail in remote waters.
We wouldn’t bother turning our ensign upside down.

 

[KeithMD]

@dunedin - thanks, your exploits are well known and admired.

For us less-mortals, pottering about with day sailing and coastal passages, do we bother?

 

[RunAgroundHard]

I sail in the same waters as Dunedin, I assume. I don’t have MOB AIS devices but have an EPIRB and PLB. I also don’t have AIS.

Flying an Endsign upside down is not a recognised distress signal, so I would not be be inclined to automatically respond, but would take an interest initially.

I do carry a barrel of tar though in case my EPIRB, PLB, VHF, Pyrotechnics and arms fail.

https://www.endeavour-sailing.co.uk...ognised_methods_of_communicating_distress.pdf

 

[dunedin]

@dunedin - thanks, your exploits are well known and admired.

For us less-mortals, pottering about with day sailing and coastal passages, do we bother?

Surely it is a matter of a prioritised list of safety equipment, appropriate to the nature of cruising waters and crew.
Then go down the list of priorities and stop when funds run out and/or risk appetite is met.

For much day coastal sailing, a waterproof case and battery backup for a mobile phone might be priority 1, a DSC VHF priority 2 (controversial but arguably correct priority sequence). A second hand held VHF would be somewhere soon on my priority list.
A PLB May not be top of the priority list, but is pretty cheap and worth it when out of sight of other boats.

 

[srm]

Having qualified as an RYA Yachtmaster Instructor in the early 80's I am even more out of date. Sailing in similar waters to Dunedin my safety briefings before offshore passages between Shetland and Norway were harsh and to the point. "Do not fall overboard. We will come and look for you but will probably have to recover your body". No inflatable life jackets in those days but safety harnesses, tethers and jackstay drill was always practiced before sailing and used at sea.
I have always applied those principles when sailing since. Carried up to date electronics on board, but consider remaining on board far more important than the potentially false sense of security provided by the various personal flotation and locating devices. I remember watching a crew getting ready for sea on a modern high freeboard yacht with cambered decks. All donned inflatable lifejackets but no sign of tethers or jackstays and not many hand holds. Left me wondering just how they would manage when one of them goes over the side, even with a PLB.

 

[KeithMD]

safety harnesses, tethers and jackstay drill was always practiced before sailing and used at sea.

I'm glad you mentioned that. That was so deeply ingrained in my mind as "Standard Operating Procedure" I didn't even think to mention it myself. We applied it consistently, especially with young children on board. Actually more so for the adults than the children, because no way would the children be able to haul an adult MOB out of the water. Prevention (self-awareness and foresight) was always better than the cure (depending outside help).

 

[john_morris_uk]

FWIW Our boat has an EPIRB and every lifejacket has both a MOB automatic device that shows up as an AIS alarm and position on the plotter plus a PLB. The lifejackets are also harnesses and the rule is to always clip on at night etc.

 

[dunedin]

Having qualified as an RYA Yachtmaster Instructor in the early 80's I am even more out of date. Sailing in similar waters to Dunedin my safety briefings before offshore passages between Shetland and Norway were harsh and to the point. "Do not fall overboard. We will come and look for you but will probably have to recover your body". No inflatable life jackets in those days but safety harnesses, tethers and jackstay drill was always practiced before sailing and used at sea.
I have always applied those principles when sailing since. Carried up to date electronics on board, but consider remaining on board far more important than the potentially false sense of security provided by the various personal flotation and locating devices. I remember watching a crew getting ready for sea on a modern high freeboard yacht with cambered decks. All donned inflatable lifejackets but no sign of tethers or jackstays and not many hand holds. Left me wondering just how they would manage when one of them goes over the side, even with a PLB.

Don’t disagree at all with the staying in board bit. However I see the PLB (locator beacon) as for mitigating other risks, not MOB. For coastal cruising it effectively acts as the equivalent for a boat EPIRB (accepting that float free is rarely needed and 24 hour battery life sufficient). Again cruising waters related, going across an ocean add an EPIRB and sat phone.

 

[r_h]

FWIW Our boat has an EPIRB and every lifejacket has both a MOB automatic device that shows up as an AIS alarm and position on the plotter plus a PLB. The lifejackets are also harnesses and the rule is to always clip on at night etc.

Likewise

 

[noelex]

FWIW Our boat has an EPIRB and every lifejacket has both a MOB automatic device that shows up as an AIS alarm and position on the plotter plus a PLB. The lifejackets are also harnesses and the rule is to always clip on at night etc.

. Same on our boat.

With a PLB on each lifejacket the EPIRB is a little redundant, but it is still required by some authorities.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

. Same on our boat.

With a PLB on each lifejacket the EPIRB is a little redundant, but it is still required by some authorities.

Cheeki Rafikee suggests that PLBs are not that reliable in alerting distress accurately, unlike an EPIRB.

 

[ylop]

@dunedin - thanks, your exploits are well known and admired.

For us less-mortals, pottering about with day sailing and coastal passages, do we bother?

I don’t have a PLB, and none of our life jackets have AIS transponders. I sail west coast of Scotland but mostly daylight reasonable conditions hopping between anchorages. Between mobile phone (2 different operators) and VHF (fixed and handheld) I think that is probably enough. BUT I’m minded to get PLB when the flares are due for replacement.

Whoever you are arguing with elsewhere is clearly an idiot! I’ve been around boats for over 30 years, I’m well aware that flying a flag upside down is sometimes said to be a distress signal - but it’s not an official one. There are flags for distress - but I wouldn’t hold much hope of anyone in the know being close enough to spot NC flag who wasn’t already close enough to see your predicament! I doubt I’d spot an upside down ensign… unless I was close enough to hear your sound signal!

 

[noelex]

Cheeki Rafikee suggests that PLBs are not that reliable in alerting distress accurately, unlike an EPIRB.

I have not read that. Can you provide a link?

The technology, transmit strength, position reporting etc is the same on both an EPIRB and PLB. The battery life is less, but it is still at least 48 hours. The aerial on the PLB has to be deployed correctly, but this is not rocket science.

A large percentage of EPIRB or PLB signals are false alarms. One advantage of PLBs on each lifejacket is that multiple units can be deployed simultaneously increasing the authorities’ confidence that a genuine emergency exists and providing redundancy in the event of failure. However, the greatest advantage is the PLB it is more likely to be readily accessible.

As I understand it, in the Cheeki Rafiki tragedy the authorities received the distress signal from two PLBs. There is no mention of receiving a signal from an EPIRB even though I think it is likely they had one on board.

This kind of rapidly developing emergency is the very situation where having multiple PLBs attached to crew members’ lifejackets is much better than a single EPIRB, and this seems to be the practical implication in this case.

 

[Bristolfashion]

EPIRB
1X PLB per crew member
DSC fixed radio
DSC handheld radio
Electronic flare
1x lifejacket per crew member, worn at all times
Clipped on at night/in poor weather
Jackstays
No going forward without 2nd person on deck
AIS transmit on boat

This is for coastal cruising up to crossing channel, Ireland, Shetland etc.

Of course, everyone makes their own decisions - interestingly, when we sailed on Australia, the safety equipment required was mandated by the state. I've attached the NSW list in case anyone was interested - slightly annoyingly, this list varied a bit by state.

 

[dunedin]

Cheeki Rafikee suggests that PLBs are not that reliable in alerting distress accurately, unlike an EPIRB.

I was careful to emphasise that a PLB can be a good alternative for am EPIRB for coastal sailing - not not for crossing oceans.
However Cheeki Rafikee had plenty of other issues, and at least the PLB triggered a search. Things like Rambler which capsized in the Fastnet the crew were rescued only because some of the crew carried PLBs in their pockets. I assume the EPIRB was trapped inside the hull.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Ocean or coastal, PLB antenna need to be held precisely upright for the signal to work reliably. The signal from the CR affair was intermittent, incomplete and imprecise, and this was commented on by the USC with the explanation given. In fact, after the initial search by USC, they stated that the reduction in successful signal transmission frequency, was exactly as they expected for persons tiring in the water and no longer able to hold the devices correctly. It was used a reason not to commit to the second search. The second search happened because of political and public opinion.

Happy to be corrected on this next point, but my recollection from the CR affair was that the PLBs never gave a location, just a rough indication based on satellites being pinged. CR initial communication with Storm Force was what narrowed down the search, not the PLBs.

The point I am making, is that PLBs are not a substitute for EPIRBs which work independently from a human after launching (or even independently if part of a hydrostatic release system) and that a PLB needs to be operated in a particular way to be effective.

 

[Major_Clanger]

I think there should be a brief course, online perhaps, that one is obliged to take when buying emergency equipment. Far too many boats have all the gear but no real idea of how best to use it and, probably more importantly, when NOT to use it.

Putting aside genuine emergencies, far too many calls are made seeking assistance when it isn't truly necessary. Having all-manner of electronic gizmos on board, specifically anything that transmits to a shore-based station, can be misused and create a 'cry wolf' situation. That puts others potentially at risk in having to turn-out and attend.

I'm not poo-pooing EPIRBS, PLBs, etc, at all (Vim has the former) but I believe that owning them carries a certain level of responsibility to others.

As for flying the ensign upside-down; almost a complete waste of valuable time. Most ensigns are quite small, and if another boat can see it's upside-down, then they're probably in hailing distance. Also, the time taken to reverse it could be better spent in addressing the actual problem.

 

[dunedin]

….

The point I am making, is that PLBs are not a substitute for EPIRBs which work independently from a human after launching (or even independently if part of a hydrostatic release system) and that a PLB needs to be operated in a particular way to be effective.

I think the key message is there are pros and cons between EPIRB and PLB. As far as I can find out, both Cheeky Rafiki and Rambler carried EPIRBS, but they failed to operate - presumably as below decks rather than on deck with quick release (where some have been washed off in severe storms). It was only the PLBs, that were presumably being carried by individuals when the boats overturned, that flagged the distress and precise location (certainly in the case of Rambler - suspect the issue with CR was the crew and PLB were washed away from the boat with no liferaft launched).
But for a cruising yacht (monohull) a keel loss and instant capsize is one of the rarest distress situations.
Going back to the original thread point, safety equipment is a balance of cost & risk, suited to the cruising waters and crew. A PLB is typically much cheaper than an EPIRB and so for coastal cruising a PLB (or two) is better than nothing, but if going crosss oceans or budget permits, ALSO having an EPIRB is even better.

 

[jlavery]

Two AIS beacons in our lifejackets and EPIRB.

I think flying a flag upside down is one of the most useless distress signals.

Then again, "lighting a fire on deck" is an official distress signal still, I believe!