How do you store gas onboard? - a secret poll

[john_morris_uk]

Compliance is a minefield, as I understand that for most boats in the UK there are no compliance law or regulations applicable.

Inland water ways craft have to meet the relevant regulations, new build boats must be CE compliant and commercial boats need to meet the code of practice regulations, but the vast majority of boats fall outside these three criteria.

If anyone is interested our gas locker is accessed from a non-sealing hatch on the side deck. It drains via a pipe and a ball valve to a through hull well above the waterline. I check that its clear regularly and one of these days will fit a bubble valve leak detector. I also noted the other day that I need to reseal the hole where the solid copper gas pipe leaves the gas locker and heads towards the galley.

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
My locker drains from the transom but the lid, though a good fit, is not sealed.I considered adding a seal.

[/ QUOTE ] Thinking safety, not necessarily regs, it doesn't matter about a lid seal if gas escaping from the lid would necessarily drain away to the sea and could not accumulate anywhere on board.

[ QUOTE ]
But it seems to me that if the bottle to regulator connection failed and the drain was blocked for whatever reason the pressure in the locker would cause it to burst. Most likely into the boat itself.

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, you'd want to avoid that. The whole idea of a sealed lid sounds silly to me since it assumes that the drain is blocked and that there is a leak - otherwise why have a sealed lid? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif As you rightly point out, if the box is sealed and there is a leak then something is going to give - hopefully the drains will clear before any other damage is done.

[ QUOTE ]
How fast would a bottle empty from the high pressure side of the pig tail?

[/ QUOTE ]I once spent many days on a filling line in Cairo where every tenth cylinder was a leaker and I have experienced what happens with butane when you draw continuous gas from smaller bottles in cold weather, on boats. If the bottle is the right way up and the leak is right at the top, on the valve, i.e. like turning the valve on full without a regulator, then the flow of gas will initially be quite fast, like a hosepipe. The liquid boils and the mass of the gas cools reducing the vapour pressure, reducing the flow. Eventually, in the UK, in cold weather, in an enclosed compartment where there is no warm airflow, the flow will be quite low - not enough to boil a kettle. Propane is different as it boils at a lower temperature and the vapour pressure at 20C is higher than butane, so the flow will be higher initially.

 

[MJT]

This is an excellent thread and a critically important one. Having seen and had to deal with the fatalities resulting from a gas explosion on a powerboat in Cyprus (boat subsequently burnt out and sunk in less than an hour), it's also close to my heart.
The boat I have now bought has an overboard drain that does not have a big enough diameter (minimum half inch?). The calor bottle is in a dedicated gas box in a cockpit locker but the regulator stands above the box and if it leaked, gas could drift/be blown down to the bilge under a couple of big Cummins diesels. There is no leak detector. There is no shut-off close to the cooker. The original flexible pipe is apparently in good order but 10 years old! All this is now being dealt with before we go back in the water but it appalls me to find this in an otherwise pretty sophisticated boat in this day and age. We spend a fortune on other bits of useful kit but, according to the survey, too many of us seem to be blind to this aspect of our boats? And I do occasionally wonder about the boats alongside in marinas. It wouldn't just be their boat and belongings.
Explosion and fire on board at sea - especially when not in range of any assistance, is the stuff of nightmares along with MOB in the dark in a big sea ...? /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[VicMallows]

You are in provocative mood tonight! .... OK it's booring here in Chi too, and a lot colder. FWIW I carry my two 7kg bottles in the cockpit just over the above-water cockpit drains .... but I know full well it still doesn't TECHNICALLY satisfy the 'best practice' advice. The sure-fire way of being 'correct' is to hang the cylinders outboard off the transom!.

Far more danger IMHO is caused by simple lack of awareness and observation than ever by the storage of the bottle itself.

Oh!, and I also have a wife with a nose more sensitive than the best gas-detector you could possibly buy!.

Vic

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW I carry my two 7kg bottles in the cockpit just over the above-water cockpit drains .... but I know full well it still doesn't TECHNICALLY satisfy the 'best practice' advice. The sure-fire way of being 'correct' is to hang the cylinders outboard off the transom!.

[/ QUOTE ]Have you ever had to argue this with a surveyor or had to make mods to meet the surveyor/insurer's requirements? When I was an active member of the Westerly Owners' Association we used to have several posts a month on the subject of gas lockers, Westerlys being older boats invariably got criticised on survey. This must be true of many older boats? I have seldom seen cylinders over the side - only a few times - and there are downsides with that as everything is exposed to seawater and corrosion.

 

[Anonymous]

To answer the question asked by several people "what regulations" "what requirements", in Europe the requirements are laid down in ISO 10239:2008 Small craft -- Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) systems. This is the standard used by all EU countries as rules or laws of one sort or another. In the UK there are no laws for use on tidal waters but there is a boat safety scheme and the LPG system requirements are clearly laid down in the following pdf file...

http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/downloads/BSS_Guide_chap7.pdf

If you do want to find the actual standard, have a look at....

ISO 2008 order page

Sadly, you have to pay to read standards even when you might be deemed by law to have read them and when life safety is at stake, but that's the Europe we live in - such things are free in the USA.

While neither the BSS nor the ISO are law, one might find oneself skating on very thin ice after an accident if one's system was much out of line with the BSS or ISO requirements.

The pdf file above is very readable and covers most of the subjects we have discussed this far, including the rules on sealed gas lockers, types of drain, etc. Well worth a read, it is well-presented.

For those of us who are mostly in foreign water, maybe we ought to take a view as to whether we might become criminally liable if our acts or omissions caused harm to others.

 

[srp]

In a boat with a low freeboard it's virtually impossible to arrange for a workable gas cylinder storage solution, which will allow bottles to be accessed from above, the regulator to be screwed on and off, and gas leaks to drain overboard. Unless someone here knows differently of course.
I've given up trying to think of a solution and bought a paraffin stove.

 

[VicMallows]

[ QUOTE ]
[I have seldom seen cylinders over the side - only a few times - and there are downsides with that as everything is exposed to seawater and corrosion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Surely you realised that was a little bit tounge-in-cheek ? ... though as I said it does technically satisfy the regs.

I know you and I have very different attitudes when it comes to insurance generally, but on this one I will certainly be taking the risk myself if it should prove necessary.

Vic

 

[Steveandelfrys]

I haveto agree that the swinging cooker with gaz bottle attached is the safest of the lot - no flexing hose no extra valves just simply on and off - at this moment I dont come up to any regs and can't find a corgi gas fitter anyway - so my floating bomb sits in a sort of drained sort of vented thingy in the back!! - actualy other than a bit of tube to get it to drain from the bottom its ok

 

[mikemonty]

[ QUOTE ]
If we think about saftey instead of regulation, and gas is heavier than air, then if your gas locker drains into the cockpit, where does it go from there? If you have cockpit drains that go out of the transom, then the gas flows away from the boat but if your cockpit drains exit below the waterline, then gas wont go that way, and if your companion way is lower than the transon, then the gas will go into the boat. Thats how i see it.

[/ QUOTE ]

To an extent, but if we now think physics instead of safety - the gas will disperse into the atmosphere over time (and not a huge amount of time) even if it has initially collected in the bilges due to a gross, catastrophic failure.
So if you can smell it in the boat - don't go looking for the leak with a match, but on the other hand it's not going to hang around such that you have to bale it out with a bucket.

Partial pressure overcomes gravity every time!

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
Surely you realised that was a little bit tounge-in-cheek ? ... though as I said it does technically satisfy the regs.

[/ QUOTE ]Well, it is actually done and the BSS actually discusses it remarking that there is a risk in a collision. I've only seen it on steel long-distance cruising yachts other than cylinders specifically for a BBQ, which are quite common.

[ QUOTE ]
I know you and I have very different attitudes when it comes to insurance generally, but on this one I will certainly be taking the risk myself if it should prove necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't follow you on that....I wasn't saying that you should take out insurance to cover that peril but that if your acts or omissions were to result in damage to others then you could become personally liable. One has personal liability insurance, perhaps, that would cover that or third part indemnity to cover damage caused by your vessel. The truth is that when big sums of money are involved the lawyers hunt around to shift the blame and those with assets of any kind are at risk. The safest thing to do is to take all reasonable steps to ensure that your installation complies with the regulations and recommendations.

 

[rob2]

Compliant with what? There are no regulations for gas fittings on sea-going private vessels!

You run the risk of going the same way as the guy from Calor who writes for PBO . He frequently and incorrectly refers to equipment as "unsuitable" or "illegal" - "less than optimal" I would accept, but actually all the safety features being built into systems leave the user feeling immortal and safety practice suffers.

After that rant, I would point out that gas storage should never be below decks, unless you have a death wish!

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
Compliant with what?

[/ QUOTE ]ISO 10239:2008 Small craft -- Liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) systems.

[ QUOTE ]
There are no regulations for gas fittings on sea-going private vessels!

[/ QUOTE ] Anywhere in the world?

 

[l'escargot]

...[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are no regulations for gas fittings on sea-going private vessels!

[/ QUOTE ] Anywhere in the world?

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think anyone is suggesting this. But as far as the UK goes, no one (excepting inland waterways users) can really answer correctly to your first 3 options as there are no enforcable requirements.

 

[Anonymous]

So your comments are limited to yachts that never leave the UK? I should think that the majority of posters here go foreign from time to time?

As for 'enforceable requirements', most marinas require yachts to have at least third party insurance and are maintained and operated in a safe manner? What would, say, Premier Marinas do if they believed that a yacht had a dangerous gas system? I think you'll find that it is 'enforceable' albeit not by men in blue helmets.

 

[mono]

I read through the PDF document - interesting stuff and prompted me to think through (again) my own installation.

A couple of points - one going back to something you said earlier. In my opinion, a sealed lid on the gas locker is important. You can't make the assumption that any escaping gas will just float downwards towards the drain. It might exit from the top of the bottle under some pressure and spray sideways, forcing it to spill over the top of the locker. If the bottle is installed inside a cockpit locker - as in my boat - this gas would drain into the bilges.

The other point concerns the diagram in the PDF file illustrating an ideal installation. This layout has a minimum of twelve joints - each of which is a potential source of leak. I notice that the practice of using a hose all the way from the gas locker to the cooker isn't recommended though it is perfectly legal. In fact, it was the installation I favoured in my last boat and meant that I needed just two joints. The pipe could be withdrawn and replaced very easily.

It's all about balancing risk. I think that an all hose installation with only two joints is preferable to the recommended practice that necessitates twelve joints. Bear in mind that even this recommended installation has three lengths of flexible hose and we all know that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

Having said that, I installed a mixed copper and hose supply on my present boat just to keep the surveyor and insurance company happy - even though I'm far from convinced it's any safer.

 

[l'escargot]

[ QUOTE ]
...As for 'enforceable requirements', most marinas require yachts to have at least third party insurance and are maintained and operated in a safe manner? What would, say, Premier Marinas do if they believed that a yacht had a dangerous gas system? I think you'll find that it is 'enforceable' albeit not by men in blue helmets.

[/ QUOTE ]
I would be surprised if you could quote any instances of such enforcement. The average marina can't be bothered to see if boats are tied up correctly, let alone "maintained and operated in a safe manner" - if it can't be seen from the marina office, it isn't of concern.

 

[fireball]

[ QUOTE ]
The average marina can't be bothered to see if boats are tied up correctly

[/ QUOTE ]
Well - the average marina we winter in does come round a regularly check to make sure boats are tied up ok. I still like to make sure myself, and double up on lines if it's going to be windy, but there is a spare warp in the cockpit they can use in an emergency ...
What would be better is if they'd give her a clean once in a while as well ... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[Evadne]

I'm pleased someone mentioned the rest of the system. In my personal experience the commonest source of gas in the boat is knocking the cooker taps open or the flame blowing out. I would have thought, not that I've ever had it but given my experience with copper fuel pipes, that corrosion or leaky joints is the next most popular, followed by degrading hoses and finally, leaky cylinders, regulators and valves. Obviously, never opening the gas bottle is the best way to prevent leaks, but how many of us actually turn off the gas bottle every time they've finished cooking or making the tea?

 

[Anonymous]

I can't sensibly take part in that survey as you have missed off a vital one ... "every time you leave the boat overnight or longer". We also have a master tap close to the cooker that we turn off when we have finished cooking but often the main tap on the cylinder does not get turned off for three or four months, or even longer.