How do you store gas onboard? - a secret poll

[Anonymous]

In conversation with yachties it seems that a surprisingly large number of yachties habitually store their gas cylinders (full or empty as 'empty' ones still have quite enough gas to cause fire or explosion) in places that are not designed for gas storage and would probably not meet the requirements if inspected.

The purpose of this poll is not to have a debate - though that's fine if anyone wants one - and very importantly it is not intended in any way to be judgemental. The idea is to find out how 'we', as yachties, are actually storing gas in the privacy of our own boats.

Wording of these polls is always very difficult - there is a risk of leading the respondent - and I have done my best. I apologise in advance if I have not considered a choice that would be more appropriate to you.

We are interested in the number of non-complying boats as a percentage of those that comply fully, so if you store most of your gas in a locker that complies fully, but sometimes store other gas in one of the lower categories, would you please select the lowest (i.e. lowest on the list) choice that applies to you

 

[prescott56]

difficult question...I have an old moody, which had a nice locker to fit 2 x 4.5 kg calor's. But i did notice it "drained" into the centre cockpit, then i asume down thro the cockpit drains.
However since moving to the med, i have ditched the calor's and now buy local butane.
In france the "le cube" fitted ok in the locker, but only 1 bottle.
Here in Mallorca the butane comes in spherical bottles so i adapted the locker, i.e. cut a hole in the bottom to drop the bottles down about 10 cm. i lived with this for a few weeks, but i have been a very good boy and now glassed the locker airtight.
It still drains into the cockpit, as per original spec. Which i assume is "illegal"
regards
Roy

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
difficult question...I have an old moody, which ..."drained" into the centre cockpit, then i asume down thro the cockpit drains....
It still drains into the cockpit, as per original spec. Which i assume is "illegal"

[/ QUOTE ]That's a good question, I don't know. One point of view might be that while you can legally sail the high seas in your boat that meets the requirements of the flag country, if you settle into a marina you should meet the gas safety requirements of the country you are in, if they are more stringent than your own. But it isn't easy to know which is more stringent - one engineer might argue with another about the best and safest design; there might not be an engineering 'right' or 'wrong' way to do it. It's a bit of a can of worms and would no doubt keep the lawyers busy in the even of a gas-related fire that caused severe damage to other vessels.

For the purposes of this survey, I think you'd fit into number 2.

 

[l'escargot]

What are the "requirements" that you refer to. If you are daft enough you can keep your gas where you want, but the sensible place is a properly vented gas locker. Without any specific regulations, the 3rd option is probably the most common

 

[RestlessL]

I keep my in-use gas bottle in a locker which drains into thje cockpit, which in turn drains through the transom.

My concern is the spare bottle. Everyone I have spoken to tells me not to worry - if it is unused it will be sealed, and safe to store in the cockpit locker (which drains to the bilges). I am not too sure.

I have a gas detectors fitted, but there is nowhere else to store the spare bottle. Even the chain locker drains to the bilges.

I would wecome suggestions.

John

 

[morgandlm]

I have a Gaz bottle in the gas locker on my Sadler 26 - this drains into the cockpit and thence the cockpit drains. My compromise is to carry a spare bottle in the under berth stowage. I do however do a bubble / leak test of the sealed bottle before stowing it. Is this very naughty?
Morgan

 

[Juggler7823]

Every one agrees that gas should be stored/used in a properly vemted locker. However people differ in how such a locker should be constructed. many old boats such as westerlys and like Ropys Moody have lockers which vent into the cockpit as standard and it is a major job to change. at the last boat show there was several boats which although were vented from the bottom to overboard, the locker itself was not a sealed unit. If the vent was blocked or filled with water, the locker would fill with gas untill it overflowed back into the cockpit. These boats were sold as complying with the RCD.

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
Is this very naughty?

[/ QUOTE ]When we were using a lot of Calor gas (small dumpy cylinders) in the winter of 2004/5 I found that many of them had leaking valves. I used to carry a bottle of very dilute Fairy and a paintbrush and insist on doing a leak detection check before buying from the local garage who were as astonished as I was that so many were leaking very significantly. I don't know about Gaz, I do keep a couple now in a very well-ventilated locker and will check.

 

[Happydaze]

If we think about saftey instead of regulation, and gas is heavier than air, then if your gas locker drains into the cockpit, where does it go from there? If you have cockpit drains that go out of the transom, then the gas flows away from the boat but if your cockpit drains exit below the waterline, then gas wont go that way, and if your companion way is lower than the transon, then the gas will go into the boat. Thats how i see it.

 

[DaveandKaren]

mine are kept in exterior gas lockers with drop vents to sea

 

[franky]

Just bought an electric Kenwood single Induction hob for about £70 .
It measures 37cm x 30cm x6cm and will boil a saucepan of water far quicker than the gas.So when hooked up to mains electric no need for gas as hob and electric kettle should satisfy requirements.Also electric is often included in berthing fee.
Gas bottles are in a dedicated self draining compartment.

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
If we think about saftey instead of regulation, and gas is heavier than air, then if your gas locker drains into the cockpit, where does it go from there? If you have cockpit drains that go out of the transom, then the gas flows away from the boat but if your cockpit drains exit below the waterline, then gas wont go that way, and if your companion way is lower than the transon, then the gas will go into the boat. Thats how i see it.

[/ QUOTE ]Thinking 'safety', not 'regulation', I think the problem with using any kind of drains is that they tend to get blocked. You have to look at what would happen in the case of blocked drains - would the gas overflow harmlessly overboard or find its way down into the accommodation, bilges, battery or engine compartments, or any other enclosed space that would allow an explosive air/gas mixture to collect?

I don't know what the various regs call for, I haven't researched it. When I do, I will check out our status against the Spanish, French, Italian and Greek requirements as we are in the Med. The Spanish have to have a regular gas check and valid gas certificate by law; not sure I want to stick my head over the parapet to join that particular club /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Searush]

My boat is 35 years old. The Gas bottle storage locker takes two bottles, one in use & one spare. It vents outboard, but the access is not sealed & blocked vents (not happened in 35years) would lead to leakage (if any) into cockpit locker & then bilge.

I have not the least idea if this meets ANY regulations, then or now. But it has been perfectly safe for the 20 years I have owned it.

 

[Anonymous]

[ QUOTE ]
My boat is 35 years old. The Gas bottle storage locker takes two bottles, one in use & one spare. It vents outboard, but the access is not sealed & blocked vents (not happened in 35years) would lead to leakage (if any) into cockpit locker & then bilge.

I have not the least idea if this meets ANY regulations, then or now. But it has been perfectly safe for the 20 years I have owned it.

[/ QUOTE ]Can you say that something has been 'safe' just because there hasn't been an accident? For example, can you say that a grinding wheel without a guard is 'safe' because nobody has yet been hurt? Like you, I don't know the regs, and I don't know the legal and insurance implications.

 

[Anonymous]

My Centaur was in that category. The gas was in the transom locker (lazarette) and had been installed many years after manufacture; the original design was a gas bottle actually in the galley under the stove! I considered it to be perfectly safe and had a big ding-dong with the surveyor; I argued and won my case with the insurers (GJW) that the surveyor was being over-zealous and that this arrangement on the Centaur was perfectly safe and a huge improvement over the original design. I got it in writing that they did not require a modification. However, the Westerly Owners' Association publish an excellent fully-documented project design to bring the gas locker up to the latest requirements - ISTR that someone sells GRP parts for the construction? Maybe true for other older yachts? i.e. ask the Owners' Associations.

 

[mandlmaunder]

It doesn't matter what flag regs you respect ,the question is can the gas get off to sea without endangering your pride and joy' if the answer is no you have the potential to blow up your toy/house/livelihood and any poor sod who happens to be near you.
If in doubt consult an engineer or use common sense and do the easy test(pour coloured water into your storage area and see where it goes.If overbrd great, if not your choice).
Gas fires do not happen often , but they will only happen once on any boat as they usually sink before you get a second chance.
Good thread , sorry about the rant but have had 2 friends in 6 years lose boats in this very preventable way .

 

[Happydaze]

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't matter what flag regs you respect ,the question is can the gas get off to sea without endangering your pride and joy' if the answer is no you have the potential to blow up your toy/house/livelihood and any poor sod who happens to be near you.
If in doubt consult an engineer or use common sense and do the easy test(pour coloured water into your storage area and see where it goes.If overbrd great, if not your choice).
Gas fires do not happen often , but they will only happen once on any boat as they usually sink before you get a second chance.
Good thread , sorry about the rant but have had 2 friends in 6 years lose boats in this very preventable way .

[/ QUOTE ]

If you pour coloured water down cockpit drains that exit below the water, you will see it in the sea but gas is lighter than water and will not go down the drain.

 

[Ruffles]

[ QUOTE ]
If the vent was blocked or filled with water, the locker would fill with gas untill it overflowed back into the cockpit. These boats were sold as complying with the RCD.

[/ QUOTE ]
My locker drains from the transom but the lid, though a good fit, is not sealed.

I considered adding a seal. But it seems to me that if the bottle to regulator connection failed and the drain was blocked for whatever reason the pressure in the locker would cause it to burst. Most likely into the boat itself.

How fast would a bottle empty from the high pressure side of the pig tail?

 

[ebbtide]

Re: Storing gas onboard? - wot regs?

Altho my gas locker has an overboard drain, the front opening, even with rubber gasket. leaves me uneasy.
But who's to know?
According to the Boat Safety Scheme I won't get above Teddington Lock - or will I?
And are British boats ever checked in foreign ports?
Do tell.

 

[john_morris_uk]

[ QUOTE ]
but gas is lighter than water and will not go down the drain.

[/ QUOTE ] Not sure you mean that do you as by definition gas is lighter than liquid.

Perhaps a simpler explanation is the "If the cockpit drain exits under water then the gas can't drain away as the drain is blocked for gases."