How can I get small yacht insurance that "covers lifting"?

[DuncanMarshall]

I'm a sailboat beginner. I've just bought an old sailboat that is on a council run hardstand, and has what I need to get started. The yard requires me to get 3rd party insurance that "covers lifting" and then prove to them that I've got that. Presumably if I do not get this, they won't lift me in in April.

I thought Basic Boat Insurance would see me through, since it's recommended by so many. Several friends and people online told me "Any sailboat insurance is obviously going to cover craning, obviously". So I called Basic Boat, and asked "Do you cover my liability in a 3rd party sense while the boat is in a crane going in to the water?". They told me no, and thought the question was strange, saying surely that would be on the crane operator. I then called 6 other companies who specialize in yacht insurance, including Bishop Skinner, Topsail, and some other names I don't recall. They all responded in this same way. "No we don't do that, surely that's on the crane operator?"

I'm a bit lost here. I've emailed the yard and asked them if they could give me examples of insurers their other customers are using for this purpose, but am unlikely to receive a reply until Thursday, and in the meantime this is a stressful situation so I'm coming to you guys for help.

What is this yard asking me to buy, and who sells it?

 

[potentillaCO32]

Phone pantaenius brokers and ask them.

P.s. not an expert but like you i would have thought that any damage is on the operator and their insurance that they would have to have anyway.

Could you ask any boats there what they do?

 

[Alex_Blackwood]

I'm a sailboat beginner. I've just bought an old sailboat that is on a council run hardstand, and has what I need to get started. The yard requires me to get 3rd party insurance that "covers lifting" and then prove to them that I've got that. Presumably if I do not get this, they won't lift me in in April.

I thought Basic Boat Insurance would see me through, since it's recommended by so many. Several friends and people online told me "Any sailboat insurance is obviously going to cover craning, obviously". So I called Basic Boat, and asked "Do you cover my liability in a 3rd party sense while the boat is in a crane going in to the water?". They told me no, and thought the question was strange, saying surely that would be on the crane operator. I then called 6 other companies who specialize in yacht insurance, including Bishop Skinner, Topsail, and some other names I don't recall. They all responded in this same way. "No we don't do that, surely that's on the crane operator?"

I'm a bit lost here. I've emailed the yard and asked them if they could give me examples of insurers their other customers are using for this purpose, but am unlikely to receive a reply until Thursday, and in the meantime this is a stressful situation so I'm coming to you guys for help.

What is this yard asking me to buy, and who sells it?

Not boaty but had something similar a few years back, when sewers and drains were residents, not water Co. resposibility. Council wanted residents to take out Public liability for repair work including section under road. We told the jobsworth to go sort it out as that was the contractors resposibility! He did I would suggest that as you have been told it is the cranage firms responsibility. Unless of course the crane is the councils and they dont have insurance?? You may need seperate insurance. Best check everything!

 

[DuncanMarshall]

Phone pantaenius brokers and ask them.

P.s. not an expert but like you i would have thought that any damage is on the operator and their insurance that they would have to have anyway.

Could you ask any boats there what they do?

I'm pretty sure pantaenius is one of the ones I called. Don't know how to get in touch with other boat owners. Haven't seen anyone on any of the other boats yet.

 

[KevinV]

Interesting - our (club) yard require us to tick a box on a form stating that the boat is insured sufficiently before they will touch it, or allow it in the the yard or on the pontoons. Critically, they don't assess what constitutes "sufficient", nor do they check that cover is actually in place - if they did it could theoretically make them culpable if a claim isn't covered.

Liability while in the slings is the club's - I don't see how it couldn't be, I'm in no position to verify qualifications, nor the condition of the equipment, etc

 

[DuncanMarshall]

Liability while in the slings is the club's - I don't see how it couldn't be, I'm in no position to verify qualifications, nor the condition of the equipment, etc

I think their issue is along the lines of the crane picks it up in a reasonable fashion and the boat falls to pieces, with one of the pieces destroying someone's Porsche. That kind of thing.

 

[crewman]

I would get them to clarify what they mean by "lifting". The crane operator is responsible during the actual lifting operation. Perhaps they want to ensure the boat is insured whist lifted ashore, i.e. on its trailer or cradle, which is normal.

 

[MoodySabre]

There's always a fine line with insurance. Crane picks up the boat, Rudder falls off in mid-air and hits somebody. Can't blame the crane operator for that, nor,apparently, an insurance company. Hmmm.

 

[lustyd]

All boat insurance in the UK will include several million of liability which is required to even enter a marina (obviously unenforceable, but it's in the terms). I imagine this is what's needed since that's the only situation your insurance will generally pay out. Anything to do with the lift your insurance will sue the crane company's insurance anyway. Same with moorings, your insurance excludes winter on a mooring because the mooring operators exclude it and therefore cannot be sued, it's nothing to do with risk, and everything to do with reclaiming funds.

 

[ylop]

As crewman suggests, my guess is they might mean that covers you for 3rd party risks whilst its on the hard - e.g. if the stand/cradle falls over. Mine does if its my fault, but not if its the yard's fault (which of course creates an interesting question in the event of a claim).

My experience is that someone like a council is more likely to ask for the policy whereas a club or small yard might be happy with you signining a statement to say you are insured, but even the marina my boat is in for the winter asked. The argument used by KevinV is a common one - better not to check the details then its not their fault, but I think its pretty weak, if the club/yard/marina/council have intentionally not insured a particular risk then not even doing the basic checks is probably worse than doing a cursory check which proved inadequate. So I would expect a council to want to see a copy of the policy certificate but be surprised if they were going to trawl the schedule/policy book for anything that wasn't worth putting on the face of the certificate.

 

[ylop]

Same with moorings, your insurance excludes winter on a mooring because the mooring operators exclude it and therefore cannot be sued, it's nothing to do with risk, and everything to do with reclaiming funds.

The insurers exclude based on geography, regardless of whether it is on a commercial or private mooring - with or without its own separate insurance. The mooring operator (if there was one) could only be liable if they were negligent, so not if you used insufficient chafe protection, your cleat failed, the boat was swamped etc.

 

[Tranona]

I think their issue is along the lines of the crane picks it up in a reasonable fashion and the boat falls to pieces, with one of the pieces destroying someone's Porsche. That kind of thing.

Your third party cover for the boat will cover this That is exactly what third party insurance does - it covers you against claims for dame resulting from your negligence (bits falling off your boat and hitting somebody/thing. If it is all risks then it will also cover any damage to the boat during the lift, but you/your insurer will recover from the crane/yard if they were negligent

 

[IanCC]

I'm a sailboat beginner. I've just bought an old sailboat that is on a council run hardstand, and has what I need to get started. The yard requires me to get 3rd party insurance that "covers lifting" and then prove to them that I've got that. Presumably if I do not get this, they won't lift me in in April.

I thought Basic Boat Insurance would see me through, since it's recommended by so many. Several friends and people online told me "Any sailboat insurance is obviously going to cover craning, obviously". So I called Basic Boat, and asked "Do you cover my liability in a 3rd party sense while the boat is in a crane going in to the water?". They told me no, and thought the question was strange, saying surely that would be on the crane operator. I then called 6 other companies who specialize in yacht insurance, including Bishop Skinner, Topsail, and some other names I don't recall. They all responded in this same way. "No we don't do that, surely that's on the crane operator?"

I'm a bit lost here. I've emailed the yard and asked them if they could give me examples of insurers their other customers are using for this purpose, but am unlikely to receive a reply until Thursday, and in the meantime this is a stressful situation so I'm coming to you guys for help.

What is this yard asking me to buy, and who sells it?

Strange, I gave my insurer, Bishop Skinner, our club's lift out procedure/method statement, which involves a crane. And asked, am I covered? They pointed to policy wording which effectively said I was.

 

[Mark-1]

I'm a sailboat beginner. I've just bought an old sailboat that is on a council run hardstand, and has what I need to get started. The yard requires me to get 3rd party insurance that "covers lifting" and then prove to them that I've got that. Presumably if I do not get this, they won't lift me in in April.

I thought Basic Boat Insurance would see me through, since it's recommended by so many. Several friends and people online told me "Any sailboat insurance is obviously going to cover craning, obviously". So I called Basic Boat, and asked "Do you cover my liability in a 3rd party sense while the boat is in a crane going in to the water?". They told me no, and thought the question was strange, saying surely that would be on the crane operator. I then called 6 other companies who specialize in yacht insurance, including Bishop Skinner, Topsail, and some other names I don't recall. They all responded in this same way. "No we don't do that, surely that's on the crane operator?"

I'm a bit lost here. I've emailed the yard and asked them if they could give me examples of insurers their other customers are using for this purpose, but am unlikely to receive a reply until Thursday, and in the meantime this is a stressful situation so I'm coming to you guys for help.

What is this yard asking me to buy, and who sells it?

I had exactly this issue. I was told my insurer would cover me as a matter of course, I just had to check. My insurer (Basic Boat) told me they didn't cover me and didn't provide that cover. They seemed almost exasperated that I'd think they would. I did a massive phone around and as far as I could tell such cover didn't even exist.

I never found a resolution and luckily for me nobody ever checked so I just chanced it for years.

As others have suggested, I strongly suspect that third party insurance covers it, the staff at the insurers just aren't aware of that.

 

[oz-1]

Hi Mr. Marshall, do you think that the council is asking for proof of a wreck removal clause in your insurance before your boat is launched? I am only suggesting this as in our harbour in Torquay, ( the council run part ), we have been asked to show that we do have such a clause in our boat insurance documents. Best regards, Oz.

 

[Minerva]

The LOLER regs are very clear on this point - liability for lifting operations falls squarely on the shoulders of the crane operator / those employed to conduct the lifting operation. As a boat owner you would never be deemed a competent person to take on any responsibility during the lift.

On parts falling off your boat during the lift - the load security is the responsibility of the banks man and they shall check the load before being lifted. They may try to argue with your insurance co to claim 3rd party damage around maintenance if, say the rudder fell off, but as the owner you probably wouldn’t get involved.

In any case I cannot see any boat insurance company wishing to take on the liability of lifting insurance.

 

[Refueler]

Too often Brokers when asked will say No its not covered ... easier than reading whole paragraphs of BS ...

I would just take out Basic Boat 3rd party ... that will then cover you for damage to 3rd parties if you / your boats liable ..

If damage is due to error on lifting appartus / operator - then they are liable and your Insurance would no doubt have a 'word' with them !!

 

[Refueler]

Hi Mr. Marshall, do you think that the council is asking for proof of a wreck removal clause in your insurance before your boat is launched? I am only suggesting this as in our harbour in Torquay, ( the council run part ), we have been asked to show that we do have such a clause in our boat insurance documents. Best regards, Oz.

Wreck Removal is standard in most Boat Insurance - even Basic Boat 3rd party has it ...

 

[dunedin]

Assuming there are other boats also on the same hard, it would be worth speaking to other owners as to who they are insured with, as that will be most likely to be familar with the operator and hence easiest.

 

[Refueler]

Assuming there are other boats also on the same hard, it would be worth speaking to other owners as to who they are insured with, as that will be most likely to be familar with the operator and hence easiest.

Doubt it ... yard like most probably asked owmers - do you have insurance .. they answer yes ... end of discussion.