High profile debate

[Twister_Ken]

Shame upon you.

Martin & Martin

Why did you have to go and mention Peter Hain, and ruin my day?

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[bigmart]

Re: Shame upon you.

Ah. so now I know your achillies heel!

Martin

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[Gunfleet]

RYA training

There may be a reason why raggies are more likely to take training than stinkies. I think it's to do with perceptions. Stinkie sailing has much more in common with motoring and will be more likely done in F3 or less. Raggie sailing has a lot of unfamiliar stuff, ropes to pull, sails to tend - it's much less intuitive for most people. So they take training.
j
ps please don't lecture me anyone about whether these archetypes are true are not. They're perceptions. I think proper use of a power boat entails a lot of skill. And earplugs.

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[Twister_Ken]

Re: Shame upon you.

Achilles heel = politicians generally, but especially turncoats like Hain who used to be radical and humanist but has become a toady of the establishment, power-crazed, lickspittle, Brown nose (upper case intentional), etc, etc, etc.

Plus, harbours desire to be PM.

Nurse! More of the little pills please.

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[duncan]

Re: RYA training

I have to question the interpretation being put on the statistics.....
firstly I cannot believe that any significant number of stinkies would join the RYA except in relation to a qualification, and therefore training. That is not to say there aren't reasons of course.
As stated on a previous post 'crewing' a MB so fundamentally different that few would go for any training wheras many people hoping or expecting to be involved with a sailing craft will do DS theory or CC courses.
Finally, I would highlight that all of the mainstreram courses I have looked at (CC, DS, CS, YM) were around general seamanship not 'don't forget to release the kicker when putting in a reef' etc - so , whilst the operational complexities of a sailing rig are there, they are not I feel a key training issue in the sense of this thread.

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[Gunfleet]

Re: RYA training

Whether you me or the RYA think they're key training issues is neither here nor there, Duncan. People taking training on sailing boats expect the training will make them better able to use the sailing boat. People 'driving' motorboats in waves less than a metre expect to be able to do it in general with no training. That's why the figures of people presenting for training are different. Whether either proposition is true or not is another matter. Or is it the case we agree and I'm misreading yr post?

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[duncan]

Re: RYA training

/forums/images/icons/smile.gif I wasn't questioning your interpretation of the statement made

" 65% of new RYA members were Motor Boaters but nearer to 80% of trainees on courses were Raggies"

I was however questioning it as valid in the context given.

65% of new RYA members are MBs currently - that's OK with me but, hypothosing that MBs only join the RYA associated with qualifications (including VHF, ICC tests, VHF to GMDSS upgrades as well as the CC, DS, CS and YM seamans ship courses) there is a big missmatch in the stats that needs accounting for. I was suggesting that it is people who don't have a sailing boat but either wish to crew, learn more about it in general, or intend to own one sometime in the future that account for this difference, and if they don't join the RYA then all the numbers quoted start to make sense. What they, the numbers quoted, do not do is even suggest - let alone prove - that MB owners are less inclined to attend training or gain qualifications than sail boat owners.

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[Twister_Ken]

Re: RYA training

What any figures about RYA membership cannot take into account is the number that have been members, may or may not have done some training and have since left.

Twister Ken. Ocean Yachtmaster Theory (1976). RYA lapsed.

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[duncan]

Re: RYA training

totally agree - I'm not even into whether they are indicative overall against that element!

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

RYA training - Long

Interesting thread, and I have been thinking about what I wrote and the reply given to it.

Yes if a couple who's children had just left home or were now self sufficient decided to fulfil a life’s dream and buy a yacht by re-mortgaging with their new found extra cash, I give this as an example as this appears to account for a fair number of people entering the sport.

If said couple bought their Bav off the shelf and set off over the horizon on their first trip out of the harbour; YES they probably would become a statistic.

BUT…..this is not happening; the statistics appear to show this. The only reason for this being; either, they have a natural flair for sailing and boating or they were intelligent enough to complete some voluntary training beforehand.

Motorboat people are different, many will never stray out of sight of land, I don’t know what the range of a 20ft fast cruiser is, but from what I see the majority of owners stay around beaches and have a social get together at the end of a days boating, the boats pulled up in the surf. (disclaimer*** this is what I see the majority doing around my sailing area). Not a great deal of training required for this, and from what I see the <font color=red>MAJORITY</font color=red> have enough knowledge of col regs not to be a nuisance to other water users.

A perfect example has been frequenting these boards of late, H1 completed many hours of training and reading, whatever your personal attitude to his overwhelming posts, he was also a great ambassador of stinkies, he I think made many raggies realise that stinkies in the <font color=red>majority</font color=red> take great care to get things right.

I am not against training, I think training is a necessity for anyone intending to sail on any passage of any distance etc. But these people are training; and don’t forget training can be from one experienced person to another, it does not have to be formal, most people are also adept enough to be able to learn from one of the thousands of books available too.

I think it is time to start trusting in your fellows on the water, and realising that not everyone is as stupid as some seem to think, some can even survive to sail well into their retirement without sinking a dozen vessels in their wake. This is becoming a nanny state, and I for one am scared by this government and do good people who seem to think regulation is a good thing. There I said it, I guess everyone is going to start ignoring me now!

Do the many children sailing mirrors off the beach need to complete a yachtmaster, what about those sailing on marine and inland lakes, I mean where will the regulation stop?

Sorry for this being long, but I worry that if the infighting continues we will sign our own death warrant to the sport, licensing will be expensive, and this is supposed to be a sport for anyone, including the canoeist who gets banned until he can navigate all waters for any passage.


<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

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[BrendanS]

Re: RYA training - Long

Jools,

An interesting take on things. Things are probably quieter in PH than down south, so not as many issues around powerboats as in the solent.

Yes H1 read up and did lots of courses, but he wasn't seen as an ambassador in the Mobo forum for many reasons. I'm not going into that area, but his courses and reading did not qualify him for many of the trips he wanted to make, and he did not understand the principles of safe seamanship that many Mobo forumites hold dear. It was the source of many postings on Mobo.

As to 20' motorboats. They can have a range of over 200 miles if their owners want to take them that far. Many will take them no further than the nearest beach as you say, but there are a proportion of them that will travel over a hundred miles on a trip to somewhere, then do the same on the return. That can can be to the west country or France or Channel Islands, and is perfectly safe if the owner understands the risks.


I sometimes wonder about training and what it teaches. I stay much further away from yachts than my peers who have had training. But then again I've been sailing, and also spend a lot of time on these forums, and read the comments about the effect of wake, which is something which does not appear to taught on courses.

I do take training where it appears useful, and will take a lot more in the future, but in my mind it's not essential if someone already has a background in navigation etc. If you can fly planes and have passed those exams, navigation at sea is not a huge leap. What is a leap is sounds and signals and secondary port tidal calculations. and anchoring! Skills which are probably better learnt by pottering around first, then taking more advanced courses as you need them.


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[Solitaire]

Re: RYA training - Long

Brendan, I have to take isse with you here. If you had passed level 2 you would have learnt all about "What is a leap is sounds and signals and secondary port tidal calculations. and anchoring!" You say these are "Skills which are probably better learnt by pottering around first, then taking more advanced courses as you need them."
To move onto the more advanced courses you need to have covered off the basics. The RYA Level 2 Powerboat course is mainly about the issues you say "are a leap"
Under section 2 of the Level 2 course regarding boat handling the areas covered are Loading;effects on handling and performance, effect on balace and trim, manufacturer's recommendation. Crew members: minimum number in high speed craft, keeping a look-out, awareness of other water users, INCLUDING EFFECT OF WASH. I won't repeat all the sub text here, but other areas which are covered in the course are, securing to a buoy, anchoring, leaving and coming alongside and MOB. Section B covers such things as "communication with other craft - hand and sound signals. Another point you feel you should know about! Section C then looks at coastal application and includes use of charts, understanding chart symbols and buoyage systems - I don't think this is part of "learning to fly a plane" I have not seen any red or green cans or posts in the sky!
Before making such statements, I suggest you check out what the RYA Powerboat Level 2 course covers. And maybe if you had done it, your hull would not have had to be rebuilt, your windscreen and cabin door will still have been in place and you would not have attemted to "drive" through Durdle Dor! - and you would be able to calculate secondary tides and how to anchor.
About 98% of the RYA Level 2 course is not done at speed - any one can drive flat out in a streight line - but can you stop in time? Do you know the correct, safe way to pick up MOB?
The other week I sat in on a Level 2 course in prepartion for taking the Instructors course next month. On the course were three people two of whom were youngters. The level of knowledge they had gained at the end of the two days was fantastic, they will both go away with a really good foundation upon which to start their boating passion. The older person while very good, had picked up bad habits. Its like driving a car - I doubt if many of us would pass today if we had to retake or tests without some kind of refreasher.
I suggest you do Level 2 then you may be qualified to have an opinion based on a more sound foundation. Practical training is essential, and this is perhaps more relevant in the Solent than anywhere else due to the sheer volume of "traffic" on the water.


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[BrendanS]

Re: RYA training - Long

The comment about effect of wash was tongue in cheek - I meant it appears not to be taught, as there are a huge number of people who have taken level 2 who still pass too close to sailing boats.

Whether I learn about lights and signals at level 2 or at YM level matters not a jot, I still have to learn them. Does it really matter what course you do them on? It's not particularly difficult, it's just a matter of memorising the many light signals. Why would a level 2 course make this any easier. Are secondary port calculations taught differently at level 2 and ym? Once you've learnt it, you've learnt it.

I can't think of any way that level 2 would have affected what happened to my boat. The windscreen came loose because of small self tapping screws direct into fibreglass. Came loose again tonight coming back from Studland Bay, and needs a longer term fix, probably bolting. Going through Durdle Door in a flat calm was not a problem, so why would level 2 training affect that? Hull repairs were to due to the fact that I like to push things sometimes, and explore limits. I don't do that when on longer cruises when I want to get home safely. As you say, anyone can bomb along in a straight line. Most of the trip home tonight I was under 13knts, as that was the safest speed I could realistically keep up, and was still hitting the odd big wave which made things uncomfortable.

I'm very aware of safety issues, such as MOB etc, and have practiced many times.

Nothing wrong with my anchoring techniques now. What I have learnt is that I needed more substantial gear than was supplied with my boat, and that has been remedied. All experience gained knowledge. I'll undoubtedly do level 2 and advanced, but I feel that these qualifications are better taken with actual experience under the belt first to make the most of them.

Navigation is navigation. Learning about bouyage systems and chart symbols is pretty easy if you understand navigational principles. One of the things I found strange about sea navigation is that in flying you learn to use something similar to the Portland plotter, but it has several concentric dials instead of just one, so that you can calculate vectors directly onto the chart.

I've nothing against training, but not all of it has to be via schools. Many people take a few courses and think that's it. I read and learn continually, and am in awe of some of the people on these forums who have a lifetime of experience.

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[Observer]

Agree with you Brendan.

I did Powerboat level 2 years ago and, as far as I remember, there was no detailed explanation of the effects of wash, particularly in flat water/light winds and shallow water. There may have been some general reference to not making excessive wash but not the reasons why.

So I think my impression, when I started going to sea in power boats, was that I should slow down for moored boats or small boats and generally leave a decent distance from yachts.

What I did not understand, because I hadn't sailed, is how dramatic the effect of wash can be on a sailing boat in flat seas and the danger of an involuntary gybe. Learning that took some actual sailing experience and explicit guidance from yachtsmen. Even now, it is very easy, in a flat sea, to forget that a relatively small amount of wash in these conditions, which are perfect for powerboating, may make things very difficult indeed for a yachtsman who is trundling along downwind in a few knots of breeze.


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[Solitaire]

Re: Agree with you Brendan.

Your post I think proves my point. You did level 2, it raised your awareness and you then built on the knowledge through practical experience. You’re also right, in that the Level 2 course does not go into detail about the precise effect of wash in differing circumstances. Level 2 is over two days and there is a lot to cover, the effects of wash are covered under the section “Awareness of others” which includes importance of lookouts, effects of wash at all speeds, consideration of others, especially swimmers, canoeists, divers and dinghies. Pollution: fuel and oil spillage. The RYA instructor’s handbook advises that “the principles thus taught can then be reinforced in every practical session, by question and answer technique whenever other craft or water users are encountered” Theory explained in practice.
When I did my Level 2, there used to be a section on emergency stops, which involved stopping a powerboat in its own length from high speed. This has since been dropped, so things change.
Anyway this is the yachting forum, my point is, put the basics in place first, then build on them; not just learn through trial and error. With power boating, anyone can go and buy a boat, stick it in the water and "drive" off with no experience at all. With sailing it’s a little different; if you don't understand the effects of the wind etc, you go nowhere! When I used to crew for a friend in Lasers and we first started, it was the funniest thing you'd ever seen. We entered a club race and my mate was helming (it was his boat!), we went one way, the rest of the fleet went the other - I said “should we not be going in that direction?” “No” he said, “I've a better plan!” Hasten to say that we were still on the water a long time after the rest had finished./forums/images/icons/blush.gif. My friend decided he’d better go off and do a sailing course. Me? I never really took to the sport and it was only much later that I bought a power boat (14 foot Fletcher with a 60hp outboard). When I look back on my first few months, prior to completing my Level 2, it makes me shudder the “risks” I took through ignorance and perhaps, dare I say it, stupidity. Mind you, I was younger then!


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[tcm]

Re: Small-minded Britishers

This is an interesting thread. Some people argue that "motorboaters are like this" or that"sailors, on the other hand" etc etc.

For training, licencing, taxing, and control, we seem to set up frameworks in the UK that assume that we are restricted in the same way as we were limited 50 years ago. The powers that be make the same assumptions regarding NHS, schools, vehicle licencing, general taxation, congestion charging, everything. They all assume that you speak English, live in the UK, register your car in the UK, pay tax in the UK and so forth. And so it would be with licencing.

But in fact we might not be brits, might not pay tax here, or base our boat here. As always, this blows holes in ageing frameworks in a way that wiould not have happened years ago, but does happen now that travel for people, machines and money is quick, easy and cheap. Boatwise, in the UK and elsewhere, far more boaters are first-generation, weren't brought up from the age of 4 on a boat, and don't hail from Hampshire.

The way to stop people doing something is not to devise some cunning military-style licencing or training plan, which would take years to become effective. For a start, newcomers will not have undergone all the training, and old hands will have been swept through. Both these groups do things wrong with relation to other boats from time to time.

The answer is simply to police the areas of concern. Stoppem, wave them away from danger, have a quiet word with them. If they cut up rough, they need powers to be allowed escort boats ashore for a long chat whilst the day breezes past, and stop some others from even setting off. Perhaps on-the-spot fines, whatever. This, as they do abroad, is the only way to stop people who fly in by car or jet, jump on their boat, and fly away again a few days later. Policing needn't be very expensive at all. As always, it is only needed in a few hotspots, primarily the Solent, primarily in summer.

As a starter for how it could be financed, the RNLI holds an enviable and pre-eminnet position as sole receiver of seafarers tax-free loot, and it could easily be a part of their remit. Without compromising their rightly-revered position as those save lives of those who have already struck trouble, it would be an idea for them to stop those whom you just know are gonna have or cause a problem, any minute soon.

Start licencing and you'll kickstart the already busy industry of foreign flagged leisure boats. Such as happened with commercial vessels which regularly hit the rocks with thousands of tons of oil, eh, Mr telegraph-letter-writing ship's master?

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[Rob_Webb]

Re: Small-minded Britishers

What you are recommending here is to tackle the problem only where it manifests itself rather than at the cause. The issue we have is that the pro-regulation lobby are in favour of tackling the root cause instead in a way which they presume/hope will result in fewer problems. But I agree that this is one area where the end does not justify the means and the the cost, effort and complexity of such an approach cannot justify the 'benefit' - far better to 'box clever' rather than 'hard' and as you say, tcm, pinpoint preventative eforts in a more efficient way, as required.

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[tcm]

Re: Small-minded Britishers

agreed, mostly. A lot of boating is subjective (how big a turn to starboard, how close is clear etc) so that many an errant boater can protest that they were doing fine ("didn't hit me did he?") when in fact they were causing a problem. A whole heap of licencing and testing wouldn't stop that - or, testing and revocation of licence would have to be at aeroplane levels of severity (exams, medical, frequent use otherwsie lose licence etc)

But direct interception in the busiest areas would do something - if something really needs to be done. Not sure if that argument is well and truly made simply by writing to the telegraph, though.



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