High profile debate

[Rob_Webb]

Over the last 2 days, the letters page of the Daily Telegraph has contained two submissions discussing the issue of qualification for private small boat users before being allowed to put to sea..... the first (yesterday) from the master of a 51,000 tonner dismayed at the 'yachtie' behaviour as he regularly plies the Solent.... the other (today) from a 'yachtie' defending our rights and saying "bog off and leave us alone"....

I know this one has been done to death on the forums but it's interesting (or alarming, depending on your point of view) to see it in such a high-rpofile public domain as the letters pages of a broadsheet... just hope no-one in No.10 was reading it over cornflakes.....



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[Mirelle]

Fortunately

I doubt if Number 10 pays much attention to the Torygraph!

Being more serious, I think we are quite safe.

There are no votes in it.

Britain contains almost a million people who mess about in boats, one way and another, whilst there are a mere 8,000 ship's officers, most of whom are getting on a bit, because our merchant fleet was ripped apart under the previous Government, notably by one G Howe when Chancellor.

A very senior figure in the MCA assured me, at a Press conference a few weeks ago, that they have absolutely no plans to introduce regulation. He pointed out that there are just three regulations which must apply, through international law - the Colregs, the pollution legislation and SOLAS and they have given us the most dilute possible version of the last whilst the first two we all agree with!

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[chas]

Re: Fortunately

But are we safe? There a buildings full of civil servants who used to regulate the merchant fleet, which, as you point out, has virtually dissapeared, now looking for something to do. My fear is that they will discover "recreational" sailing and start regualting that.

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[jamesjermain]

Re: Fortunately

Don't be so sanguine about the MCA. Remember, they wanted to impose the full rigour of SOLAS on yachtsmen and were only disuaded when the RYA pointed out the error of their ways

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[ecudc]

Oh dear everyone is going to slam me for saying this but I thinks its a good idea. I expect driving licences weren’t too popular when they were first introduced but I feel safer knowing that myself and the overwhelming majority of UK drivers have, at least in theory, been taught how to drive properly.

The exam doesn’t have to be excessively hard or expensive just sufficient to prove that you know your rules and regs and that you have sufficient knowledge of tides, winds and waves and safety to sail competently without risking your own lives and others.

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[vyv_cox]

If that was the only issue I suspect that many here would agree with you. Unfortunately, it isn't.

First problem is that all boats and owners would need to be registered before anybody could be enforced to take such an exam. Apart from the difficulty of this, the costs would be enormous and registration fees would need to be charged. Say 50 pounds?

Next, the exam. Practical and theory? Say 200 pounds?

Next, once we are all registered, we can all be charged light dues. Another 100 pounds?

Then what? Mooring dues? Water recreational user tax? Wind duty? It's never ending.

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[webcraft]

Read the 'RYA New Dawn' article in the current YM. Check out the statistics for fatalities per 100,000 participants - sailing is safer than badminton and as dangerous as fishing.

Better get a licensing body for these dangerous sports as well . . .

The statistics show time and again that our sport is not dangerous, and therefore does not require legislation. Yachtsmen who argue in favour of legislation have, IMHO, missed the point.

- Nick





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[Peppermint]

Re: Sounds cheap to me

Old Gordon would hit us up for a bit more than that. Maybe indexed to boat size/value or sail area or thames measurement.

After all all yotties are loaded.

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[ecudc]

Fatalities maybe but with a hell of a lot more serious injuries and close calls. If the coast guard can be called out 31 times in one day when to be honest the wind was only a six gusting seven and the waves in the Solent were not excessive then something is going wrong.

Webcraft you yourself have done costal skipper, why did you feel it was necessary to do this?

I also don’t accept that the cost of registering and taking an exam would be significantly higher than that of taking your driving test:

Current cost of a full driving licence is 31 pound sounds about right for a registration fee.

Current costs of lessons are by my estimates between 200 and 600 plus cost of tests (theory and practical). Currently taking day skipper theory and practical costs around 600 including tuition.

You also wouldn’t necessarily have to take lessons from a registered examiner if you have friends/family who are prepared to help you, like we currently have with the provisional drivers scheme so you could end up just paying the exam fees.

Requiring a test does not necessarily mean that the government will wallop on a whole new load of taxes and they can do that anyway anytime they like even if they don’t ask you to take a test.

Whilst I’m not saying that we should absolutely have further legislation I don’t think the idea should be dismissed out of hand and is worthy of further discussion.



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[billmacfarlane]

Does any EEC country have compulsory licencing and if so are there accident stats any better or worse than the UK's ?

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[Rob_Webb]

Good question - I dunno.

Interesting though that original letter in Telegraph was from big ship skipper with tone of concern about welfare of him and his colleagues, less so for welfare of littl'uns.... when was last time one of us caused grief for a deep-draughter? which seemed to be his angle.... probably more powerful point if letter had been a complaint from one of us (though probably also less interseting and therefore not published).

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[duncan]

31 incidents that required the attention of the coastguard would have me concerned - 31 calls (given the nature of at least some as I understand it in the solent last week) does not.
You cannot legislate for peoples actions - I bet if everything was added up the police spend more time on people that don't have a valid car licence than do on the roads for example.

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[Rob_Webb]

Hi Duncs..... but we DO legislate for people's actions in loads of areas where you have potential to cause grief, injury or even plain inconvenience to others... we have laws crawling all over us..... problem is, if you were starting from a blank sheet of paper, you would probably have to concede from a rational point of view that skippering a small boat (as opposed to a lilo) should require SOME kind of competency check as is the case with driving and flying...... but this isn't a purely rational debate and it's more political and emotional hence reluctance from lots of us (me inlcuded) to legislate...

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[Heckler]

No 10 reading The Telegraph

?

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[Twister_Ken]

Re: No 10 reading The Telegraph

I'm sure they do. After all we've got a right wing prime minister.

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[Twister_Ken]

Further discussion

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[Robin]

Hands Up

Hands up everyone who thinks that THEY personally need a licence to make the world safer - or is this something that only applies to the other prats.

Who pray is going to police this and how? Spot checks at the harbour entrance? Dawn swoops on the marina? Maybe cameras can be mounted on harbour entrances to read the licences as boats enter.
Are we to take away our small marinised police force from crime duties to licence disc checking, well maybe at least that would show some results AND be a source of revenue (they could keep a percentage of the fines too towards their wages).
Will there be a points system, 3 speeding offences lose your licence? Perhaps offenders could be made to do community service, like making the tea for the coastguard or polishing the lifeboat.
Will serious offenders be jailed, the floating prison in Portland Harbour could house them perhaps?

Oh well, maybe it was a stupid idea anyway.


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[Twister_Ken]

On the road again

Obvioulsy having a driving test, and a road fund licence, and an MOT test has completely removed prats from our roads, and reduced the level of accidents to nil.

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[Rob_Webb]

Re: On the road again

well clearly not entirely Ken but compared to some other countries where rules are slacker you can see the worse situation they have to deal with on the roads e.g. parts of Africa, India - and most of us breath a sigh of relief at the end of each journey in those places even if we enjoy the other reasons for being there e.g. freedom! Personally I;m not in favour of more regulation/licencing but I can see some valid points in the opposition's arguments..... it's not a cut and dried case

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[duncan]

sorry I seem to have given you the wrong impression of my view overall - I was in that just questioing whether the number of callouts to the coastguard was valid to the point being made.
Overall I am in favour of the RYA's stated views on licencing although I feel that facilities in general could do more to enforce or require third party insurance for all users - (including sailboards and dingys!) - and the insurance market could then drive up training and competance through pricing.

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