Her Majesty's Customs and Excise...

[Jimmy20V]

Her Majesty\'s Customs and Excise...

Thanks to all who posted on my previous thread regarding the "import" through the euro zone of a new Etap 21i.

Following your advice, I called HM C&E at Dover. Had a very interesting hour being passed from pillar to post from one officer to the next. Answers varied from...

a) You HAVE to pay the VAT in Belgium (21%) (LOL)
b) I should apply to C&E Belgium for a refund of the difference (ROFL!)
c) I need to take the caravan, sorry BOAT, out of the euroTAXzone (ie Channel Islands) and then back in again. (some kind of logic there)
d) I need to be a registered for VAT myself...

Needless to say, i have booked an appointment with our companies Chief Accountant (we do alot of import/export) to find out what he thinks!

I'm up for any more suggestions from you guys. Suggested reading? Should I spend a few quid and see a lawyer?

Cheers

Jimmy

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[Chris_Stannard]

Re: Her Majesty\'s Customs and Excise...

You should have read the VAT notices on the C&E site. The trouble is that they refer all the time to a "means of personal transport" and seem to refer to cars, although they do in fact cover boats and aircraft as well as cars. I did for the import of a boat for a friend of mine. I cannot remember the number but think it was notice 726 but could well be very wrong. However what it says in brief is that if the boat is to be British registered you have 90 days or 100 hours operation to get the boat to the Uk and then you can pay the VAT. It does help if you have sorted out the paperwork before you start.

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[Jimmy20V]

Re: Her Majesty\'s Customs and Excise...

http://www.hmce.gov.uk/forms/notices/728.htm#P100_6306

Just in case anybody else is interested. Thanks Chris!!!!

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[whisper]

Re: Her Majesty\'s Customs and Excise...

Sorry if this has been asked before but I've not read your previous post. Is the boat new ? If so then our experience might help - we imported a new boat from Denmark last year. The local VAT rate is 25% so we obviously wanted to pay the tax in the UK thereby saving 7.5%.
To do this we had to pay the Danish tax as part of the original invoice. We then brought the boat into the UK and within the statutory time, 30 days I think, paid UK VAT based on the original Danish NET price. On receiving the receipt from HM customs, we sent it to the Danish dealer who submitted it to their tax office and they then received the Danish Vat back. They then passed that on to us. Complicated, but worth it.
HOWEVER to do this the boat has to have an OVERALL length of atleast 7.5m. If not then we were told that the VAT paid can only be that of the country of purchase. In that case it would be advantageous to buy from Germany as their Vat is at only 16%.
Sorry if this totally misses the point.

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[Jimmy20V]

Re: Her Majesty\'s Customs and Excise...

I saw that in my reading last night, that's abit of a bugger. (
The whole point of buying the boat from Belgium is that I am trying to avoid the (frankly offensive) charge of £1900 + VAT for commissioning and delivery that all UK Etap dealers like us to pay.

My German isnt up to much, but I will have a rummage on the web and see what I can find.

Thanks for your advice tho, maybe i'll just have to buy a bigger boat!

Jimmy



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[claymore]

Re: Her Majesty\'s Customs and Excise...

A friend of mine was stopped at Customs as he came back from somewhere in the middle of the night. The officer said "Are you aware of her Majesty's customs?" to which my friend - ever one for the smart word responded "I believe she is fond of Corgis"
The ensuing free anal search was apparently not his pleasantest experience!

<hr width=100% size=1>regards
Claymore
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[qsiv]

Re: Her Majesty\'s Customs and Excise...

The more I read of these posts, the more I dread the thought of bringing the new boat in from the States (particularly as I want to commission the boat and race at Key West on the way over).

It strikes me that a good agent would be a worthwhile investment, as I have no desire to get the paperwork wrong and be forced to pay VAT (as the boat will be based out of EU waters). I do recall you only get a very brief amount of time to do a work up before clearing out the UK, and the weather in February is likely to be exciting for a full on race boat, with a crew that will barely have time to learn her systems. OTOH, given the right conditions Needles to Cherbourg will only take about 3 hours.

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[tcm]

Re: Her Majesty\'s Customs and Excise...

I note that you planned to have a chat with your FD. If so, I wonder if you have control or influence over the things that your company buys?

The scenarios outlined are for personal import of the boat, paying vat at both ends and reclaiming from the original company. The arrangement of course ensures that even if you decide after all to stay in belgium, or dissappear, then at least the tax has been paid, and if you pay vat in both coutries, you can reclaim the double payment. Note that it is the seller in belgium who gets a kicking (and has to pay vat) from his tax authorities if he hasn't charge vat - he isn't the policeman in all this.

But if a vat-registered company buys the boat it is quite different, i believe: their registration number shows that they will be inspected to ensure that they have charged/paid vat on items sold/bought. The seller (who is also vat-registred, and needs to show why he hasn't charged vat) in belgium needs the name of the UK company, and vat registration number, and company registration number too: then he can validly charge zero vat on his invoice.

The UK company could then resell the boat to you, charging vat to you and paying this to their vat office in the normal way. They'd make no money so no extra corporation tax is payable by them.

It's at about this point that many start hatching inventive schemes wherby they agree to work for the company in exchange for boat, instead of for money: NI and personal tax would be payable on such items, and vat on the sales price, but the notion of a sales price starts to get murky. Or, the company agrees to sell the boat to you at a knockdown price - because it's secondhand and they are "desperate".

This all starts attracting attention and arguments with HMCE. You would have saved the 1900 quid, and the expensive vat-chasing, and can simply buy from the importing company as you would have done from a marine trade outlet. Much the best if the importing company can show all documents relating to currency (with exchange at the correct rate) and the amount charged to you plus vat all correct.

all imho.

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[Blue_Blazes]

Re: Her Majesty\'s Customs and Excise...

Don't even try looking for logic or cosistency when dealing with HMC&E. I spent a whole afternoon being passed, or should I say pissed around by their National advice centre. Very polite and pleasant with it but it was clear the people I talked to didn't really want to deal with what was an unusual enquiry. I ended up being passed to their Technical Department in Southend, who had to phone me back the next day with an answer. The question was. I am buying an old boat from the USA, transporting it by ship to Southampton, then by road to Weymouth, then by ship to Alderney, in the Channel Islands. Do I have to pay VAT? Eventual answer was. No, because the boat is only a temporary import. They advised that I contact Southampton Customs nearer the time to let them know what I was doing. I did this yesterday, only to be told that I would have to pay a deposit equal to the import duty and VAT, which I could claim back! I asked the nice polite customs officer how long this would take and he said "You'll have to phone the national advice centre". Going round in circles time, I think. Apparently the problem lies in the fact that the boat has to travel by road from port of entry to port of exit.

Bill.

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[oilyrag]

Re: Her Majesty\'s Customs and Excise...

Oh dear - I seem to have sold you a pup on this one but, in actual fact, all the answers you got from HMC&E are valid - the only rule I wasn't aware of was, as Whisper points out, the NMT (you know what that is now!) rules don't apply to boats under 7.5m - you're stuffed unless, as you say, you buy a bigger one!
The answers a) & b) need no explanation and d) doesn't apply as you are not a VAT registered business. Even if you were, I doubt Etap would sell you one as you would not be one of their UK distributors.
c) is perfectly valid because VAT is not payable on goods sold outside the EC. Therefore if you bought the boat in Belguim and had it delivered to a port for export, and could then produce evidence of export outside of the EC (e.g. a Bill of Lading), the supplier would sell it to you VAT free.
If you then chose to import it from this non EC country back into the UK, you would have to pay VAT as you couldn't prove that VAT had been paid already in an EC country, because it hasn't. However, it then maybe becomes liable for Import Duty unless you can prove it was supplied in the EC................sorry - nodding off here...
Frankly, you would be wasting your time seeing a lawyer as you would need to see a tax specialist who would be expensive and could only tell you waht you now already know, then Sterling is currently dropping like a stone against the Euro (why's that then Tony?), you have the cost of transport from Belguim to add in etc. etc. so you might find that by the time you made your mind up it will cost you as much to buy it direct from Belgium as it would to buy it in the UKanyway!

Let us know how you get on!




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[oilyrag]

Re: Her Majesty\'s Customs and Excise...

The shipping co bringing the yacht in should be able to arrange all this for you however, if you are not shipping via a specialist yacht forwarding company then speak to a company like Peters & May (they advsetise in the back of PBO) and explain to them.
They should be able to arrange 'T1 transit' documentation which would mean you did not have to pay a deposit to HMC&E. Even if the can't/won't, (beacuse they would be liable if you defaulted) they will still arrange all customs formalities and arrange payment/refund of a deposit. The costs are small compared with the 'hassle factor' of trying to do it yourself.

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[Jimmy20V]

Re: Her Majesty\'s Customs and Excise...

I'll let you know, am looking at buying the boat in Germany now, see how much they charge for "PDI & Plates"...

Dunno what happens about registry then! OMG!! should I buy a car instead????

Yours, witha head full of stuff

Jimmy.

PS Thanks ever so much again all for your input, you are a collection of little stars.... ermmmm, constellations even!

PPS Yes, i do get sillier!

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