HELP

[telmate]

The Southampton boat show beckons and my life will become a misery. I have already received complimentary tickets and I'll drag my family down to the show and will (for the third year) contemplate buying a boat. My heart says 'do it' and my head says 'depreciation, recession, best put my money into property, family won't like it, mooring costs, what if I don't enjoy it - can I sell it easily and what will I lose? I've subscribed to MBY and MBM for the last few years, researched every boat and my wife and children can name virtually any boat they see!
I'm afraid to say I have placed a couple of orders at previous shows (pending sea trial} and then cancelled. I have done a 5 day ICC in rough weather in the Solent, a Day Skipper course and many days out on my friend's boat but I just can't bring myself to part with the money for a 45foot Princess or Fairline Phantom... But then I really want one. I suppose I could buy smaller but with a large family this size of boat seems ideal.I see so many boats just sitting in marinas - do people get bored with them? I've also considered buying second hand but my family say if I'm buying one it's best to buy new because we can spec out the boat etc.Also a lot of the second hand boats we have seen leave a lot to be desired.
I don't usually vacillate to this extent but I can see myself ordering another one and then immediately regretting it. Is this normal and what advice would you give me?

 

[Guest]

Can you persuade (or pay!) your friend to take you and the family out for a pre-arranged week on his boat, to see if you and all the family genuinely share and enjoy the dream that you are creating?? If you all do, then go ahead and buy the boat of your dreams. If not, say thanks very much and think about the money you will have saved.
A rule of thumb for running costs (moor, insure and maintain) is 10% percent of it's value, so build this into your figures if you need to finance the boat with a Marine Mortgage.
Hope you and your family realise the dream soon!!

 

[telmate]

Thanks Peter. Good advice. My friend's boat is in Majorca though. I would have to charter one as I will be boating in the UK ( out of Southampton). We did spend a couple of days on his boat in Palma and the family loved it because my wife and daughters got suntans! Also it was fairly calm and I think they would probably freak in anything above a force 3 - not that I would want chose to go out in a rough sea.
I live close to the Thames and would also like to be able to ocasionally boat on the Thames although I know air draft would be a problem beyond Windsor.That's been the other issue in deciding which boat to buy - one that is suitable for occasional Thames use but mainly the sea.

 

[david_bagshaw]

Charter or hire something for this year, then buy pre owned for the next years, then you will truly gain by buying new as you will know what you want rather than the items the builders wish to push.

Have fun, once bitten by the bug it is forever!!!



David ps Take a look at my site www.yachtman.co.uk

 

[Guest]

Like you, we're looking for our first boat. Like you, we've um'd and ah'd for a long time. Like you, we've not yet made a decision.

We'd narrowed our choice to a new Phantom 43 but the cost just kept going up. It's not just the list price (less discount), it's all the extras. Even on something like the P43, it can still be a long (i.e. expensive) list.

Like you, we worry: what if we don't like it? What about all those other boats that never seem to move off their moorings? We'd lose an awful lot of money if we decided we didn't like it and sold up shortly after buying.

So we now feel the best thing is to buy someone else's mistake. The boat that we want, of course, but the one that someone else bought new a year or two ago and then realised they'd made a mistake. Either they don't like it or they've bought too small (we're told many new owners buy their second boat soon after their first boat because they find they need bigger.

We're told that most things can be added to a boat so an underspecified boat shouldn't be too much of a problem. Get the biggest engines, though. They are rather difficult to change! and biggest is probably best.

Price: We're looking to buy from someone who's got a bit desparate to sell and the price has become reasonable. That way if you do sell it shortly after buying, you shouldn't lose too much. Certainly not as much as if you had bought new.

Secondhand v New? If you buy someone's mistake and it's a year or two old, it'll not have been used much and it'll not be far off new condition. It's nice to buy new but the money you can save has persuaded us to compromise!

Remember: above comments are from someone who hasn't actually bought yet! Comments from other people would be interesting to read.

 

[chrisbrown]

I have had a lot of good clean fun with this one. If you are confident that you will be comfortable with the time and money that this scale of motor yacht demands then I would want to ask the unsalesman like question, why? What are you really going to do on your own vessel that you are not already able to do with that of your friend or on a thames hire boat? Make a list of the answers and cost it out again. If you decide to own one then lets be honest, it is not that easy to make a good sea going vessel out an other owners problem and it does little to enhance the project with the family if you are thrashing about trying to fix things during the critical first trips. I have made a hobby out of helping a few people along this path and would be interested in hearing the outcome of your dictomy.

 

[miket]

I would strongly advise buying nearly new. As soon as you buy a new boat you should write off the value of the VAT (£35k on a £200k boat). Therefore you should already be making this saving on new.

Buy the best specified boat available, because generally speaking the additional price is nothing like reflective of the actual cost of these toys.

Don't worry too much where it is, as transport back to UK is a relatively small cost.

I am not sure where the previous respondent's figure of 10% of the boat value equalling the annual running cost comes from? Moorings, insurance and servicing really shoudn't cost you more than £10k even in a bad year. Fuel is entirely dependent on how much you use it.

Buying new is nice. But only once you know the whole family enjoys it and you are certain that the boat you choose will be kept for 5 to 10 years. The impact of the lost VAT is then not so great.

I must admit to being on my 7th boat in 16 years so obviously do not practice what I preach. But they have all been 2nd hand, and always a very good reason for changing!!

Think hard before trying to buy something that suits Thames and Coastal. I have been there. It is usually indifferent at suiting either.

 

[Guest]

My advice would be to exercise caution. It sounds to me that you have already decided that you like boating (some miss this step out and end up buying a white elephant). My advice would be to start off by buying a pre-owned boat that broadly meets your needs with little or no work to get you and your family out onto it and enjoying it sooner rather than later. Similar to other posts, you could use the boat to help you better define your needs for your current ( 3 seasons?) requirements. You may strike lucky and find the boat to be perfect for those needs. You may want to have work done on it to either make it more in tune with your needs, or to take it beyond the third season. This will help you better specify your actual requirements (rather than what a salesperson suggests you might want) for a boat that you may wish to buy new in later years.

 

[telmate]

Many thanks for all your feedback the thrust of which is to not buy new. I had thought of buying a demonstrator but again the saving wasn't that great. I definitely have a passion for boating and have enjoyed every minute I've been out at sea. Funnily enough I have never been on a boat on the Thames though!
It sounds like I can enjoy the boat show as I will not be fighting salesmen for a great discount (!) only to then cancel prior to the sea trial. I think I will buy a fairly new Fairline Phantom 46 or a Princess 45. In any event I will let you know how I get on. Incidentally, I am intrigued by how many boats re-appear for sale month after month in the magazines - are they overpriced or are there more sellers than buyers?

 

[c_j]

Why a Flybridge?

Is a flybridge what you want?
We bought a secondhand Princess V40 and it is great. I buy the monthly mags to watch the values and the best thing is that I rarely see another for sale.

I think an open boat is more fun and for me the abilty to have the family in sight is a bonus.

I think a close look at condition is a major factor. If it looks as new then it has a good chance of being even better than new because someone else has the teething problems. Get survey and be there with the surveyor.

Funny that no one seems to survey new boats

Good luck and come on in, the waters lovely!

 

[telmate]

Re: Why a Flybridge?

I decided on a flybridge because I did the ICC on a Sealine F43 and the skipper said that Flybridge boats are easier to control and more stable in the water.In addition we quite like the vantage point from the flybridge. Other salesmen told me that open boats are mainly destined for the Med but I must say that I really like the range of Princess V boats, Fairline Targas and even looked at the Birchwood Commando 510! The new Sealine S48 also looks like a nice boat - and I can see your point about sociability but I think I will go for a Flybridge - although I might just take a look....mmm resale values also look good...

 

[trev]

Re: Why a Flybridge?

I've had two flybridge boats but found them decidedly un-social from the skipper's point of view - your up there driving and everyone else is in the cockpit drinking and yarning. You also don't get to chat up the birds as most don't fancy climbing ladders on a moving boat!!
I now have a nice big sportsboat (Sealine 365) and have no intention of buying another flybridge - I boat in the UK and been out in all weathers - no problem.

Trev

 

[Guest]

Re: YOU SPINELESS WIMP

Buy the boat and tell her and the kids they WILL enjoy it or else,dont leave it ONE marina keep moving around the coast so they dont get bored and clock up loads of hours travelling.

you'll meet loads of friends and have a brilliant time,the other option is staying at home with yer pipe and slippers mowing the lawn and decorating the bl**dy garden.

Now get on with it before you curl your toes up and die.

 

[Guest]

Re: Why a Flybridge?

I am a flybridge boat fan but I have to say the reasons your F43 skipper gave for favouring them are bit off the wall. Flybridge boats are easier to control and more stable???? Flying bridge boats have more top hamper than a sports cruiser, especially with a load of people on the flying bridge and therefore

a) are less stable than a sportsboat equivalent
b) suffer more from windage.

Having said that, the stability issue is a bit of a non issue as both types have more than enough stability, unless you overload the flying bridge. On a 45ft boat you would have to have maybe 10-12 people up there and no one down below to noticeably affect stability.

As for handling better, a twin shaft drive boat is a twin shaft drive boat and subject to windage as mentioned above, one will be no less easy than the other to handle. The only issue might be the view from the helm which generally is better from a flying bridge. On the other hand, if sailing short handed, you can have to look slippy to get down from the flybridge and onto the pontoon before the boat has drifted off!

The true advantage a flybridge boat has is the British weather. It is basically much nicer in the driving rain of our summers to retreat "downstairs" and enjoy your G & T in centrally heated comfort. As for the social aspects, the size of the flybridge on a 40ft+ boat tends to easily accommodate the average party of crew/guests but, if its a problem, you can always join them downstairs by conning the boat from the lower helm.

If you are doing your sailing in a warm climate, a sports cruiser is excellent. In the British Isles and especially in Northern parts e.g. Scotland, a lower helm, with heating allows round the year cruising.

Nick

 

[c_j]

Re: Why a Flybridge?

I echo the stability issue, maybe your skipper was referring to the shaft drive/Stern drive issue. With shafts you will get better handling not least cause you have a rudder, and the extra power required to drive a boat on shafts requires larger engines (heavier) which, mounted more centrally on the boat, again aids stability. But in no way would I swop the 40 knots of my V40 stern drive for a 30 knot shaft drive version. The handling issue is a matter of degree and if you want difficult try any single engined boat without a bow thruster!

I would also dissagree with the Med boat tag that sports boats have. We have a canopy which makes the cockpit water proof and usable and the fact is that we only really use the boat when the weather is good enough. I don't mean sunny, but just good enough. I used her right through last winter and at present I do feel that this is preferable to having your lounge (complete with three peice suite and patio doors) stuck just where the open cockpit should be!

This of course may all change when I am old

Chris aged 50

 

[telmate]

Re: Why a Flybridge?

Chris, I get your point about the patio doors! My spine is now firm and I shall get out there and buy a Fairly New boat (up to two years old) and whist I will keep an open mind as to whether a flybridge or sports boat, as a family our preference is definitely the flybridge boats (providing they have steps up to the flybridge and not a ladder (like the Manhattan). Nick's point regarding the weather and flexibility of a flybridge/downstairs option are strong factors given the weather and I am sure that most weekends I/we will be out on the boat.
Richard are you convinced and will you be going for the Phantom 43?

 

[miket]

Re: Command Bridge

There is a 3rd option!

The "command bridge", as used by Broom and Atlantic.

You get the advantage of sociability, a good view, don't freeze to death, a bl**dy great stateroom aft, and some serious quality, with high resale values.

Sounds pretty good to me, but I own one!

 

[jollyjacktar]

If you have to think about it.....?

If you have to think about it don't buy. You will regret your actions. You are a dreamer and the salesmen just love your ilk. Better to buy secondhand off someone who like yourself and made a witless purchase. Better still just keep going to the boat shows while the free passes last keep the water clear of bumbling novices with no real convictions and leave boating to the real enthusiasts.

 

[telmate]

Re: Command Bridge

I really like the Atlantics and Brooms and I know they are solid and also suitable for use on the Thames. However my family think they look old fashioned in comparison with the cherry wood and styling of the other flybridge/sportsboats. I have noticed the high resale values of these boats. The guys at Broom in Harleyford have also been really helpful but at the end of the day styling has a lot to do with it (even though I think the Brooms and Atlantics look fine).

 

[telmate]

Re: If you have to think about it.....?

Anyone who parts with circ £350k would think about it. All novices start somewhere!