bedouin
Well-known member
I have Ineos as slight favourites for the Prada and ETNZ favourites for the AC - but the conditions is likely to play a major part in both
Having won the America’s cup....
- Thread starter Wansworth
- Start date
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
That would be a good thing, but is there any reason to believe that, wheoever wins, the next version won't be yet another willy waving competition between rich people and their lawyers?
flaming
Well-known member
I see you understand the America's cup!
INEOS have been very tight lipped as to what they would propose should they be defenders. If I was betting I'd say an AC75 mk 2, with a few of the more restrictive rules opened up.
But we are a very long way from that scenario yet, winning this cup is an extremely tough ask.
bedouin
Well-known member
It might be interesting to speculate on who will be the challenger of record next time around?
Will LR an ETNZ stick with each other, and who would INEOS choose?
Will LR an ETNZ stick with each other, and who would INEOS choose?
flaming
Well-known member
I think INEOS are better than slight favourites for the Prada cup. Both teams know that Ben and Giles are so strong that there's no way LR beat them to seven wins in even boats. Which is actually an astounding thing to say when you consider that the other boat has Jimmy Spithill on board... For LR to win they will need a faster boat, especially upwind. All the evidence the last time they raced was that the boats were pretty even. And INEOS have had more shed time. For LR to get past INEOS now, I think their designers etc will have needed to find quite a bit of speed, as clearly INEOS isn't standing still.
Same applies to the cup I think. Nobody wants to face Ben and Giles in evenly matched boats. If you think back, that combo hasn't been beaten in an OD event for.... well, I can't actually remember the last time they entered an OD event and didn't win... Across Sail GP, ACWS in the AC45s, etc etc, right back to Olympic sailing. Their record is really something.
The assumption at the moment is that NZ have a faster boat. Which is probably true, but what is interesting if you really geek out on the videos of them training is that they do seem to have more "whoops" moments than the others. More splashdowns etc. Their package looks like it's less forgiving. I still make them marginal favourites, but if the challengers have a quick enough boat to really put the pressure on it could get interesting.
flaming
Well-known member
I suspect that NZ would stick with LR, especially if the rumours are correct and they intend to defend in the home of their sponsor rather than NZ next time round. That would need a fairly agreeable CoR I think. LR would probably stick with NZ, unless they really wanted to change the class and go back to non foiling boats.
Suspect INEOS would probably like to pick the Americans, but I'm not 100% sure they'll actually be back next time.
Tomahawk
Well-known member
An Americas Cup without Americans?
bedouin
Well-known member
I think in tricky conditions INEOS have the edge over everyone - but with more settled weather it will come down to boat speed and there is little to say that INEOS has a faster boat at this point. In particular I have to say I like the ETNZ foils and I think in stronger winds that might give them the edge in boat speed over either LR or INEOS
flaming
Well-known member
It may happen. Or the same Americans might be back. Or some other ones...
flaming
Well-known member
The fact that ETNZ have taken such a different tack to the foils than the others certainly adds a layer of intrigue. We will have to wait until the cup itself to see which approach has worked out the best.
What I find the most interesting is that INEOS initially launched their test boat with T foils very similar to the ones ETNZ have, but moved away from that as they developed their foils. The question is if this was because they didn't think they were fast, or because they didn't think they'd be able to tame them? If the latter, and NZ have tamed them...
One thing is for sure, for all the teams are currently working away on their boats looking for that last fraction of a percent it's very likely that the design genius / mistake that wins or costs the cup is already on the boat. As the ETNZ foils and flight control system were this time last cup.
bedouin
Well-known member
The problem with the foils is that it is a very new area of sailing boat design and they are restricted as to how many you can try out - so there is a lot of luck in going from drawing board to your final selection in only a couple of generations. I haven't been following it that closely but the ETNZ ones I've seen seem much narrower (front to back) than any on the competition, and I know as a rule long / thin is better than short/fat for aerofoils
Frogmogman
Well-known member
If chicken counting (prior to hatching) were a competitive sport, there might be a few on here who’d be in with a shout at a podium place.
Let’s get past Luna Rossa in the Prada Cup first.
Let’s get past Luna Rossa in the Prada Cup first.
Last edited:
flaming
Well-known member
I highly recommend the video I linked to above, does quite a good job of explaining why the restrictive nature of the foil box and the need for the foils to weigh 921kg makes the job harder, and what the pros and cons of the various design routes are.
In essence if you have a foil that is nice and thin like you might want for minimum drag, you still have to put that mass somewhere and you're limited in span, so you need to have a bulb. A bulb causes drag that has no benefit, so that moves the balance back towards a larger foil as if you have to have the drag anyway, might as well be foil area that you can use rather than just a bulb...
But it is fascinating that the teams have such different approaches to foil design given the exact same constraints...
My own hunch is that the early work that each team did on the rig, and how much power they thought they could get out of it, coupled with how well they thought they could control it, drove the foil design.
dom
Well-known member
I love Squash but am concerned about my crowded mantlepiece if I win the World Series!
RJJ
Well-known member
I would love to see the notional percentage performance of each boat as the weeks go by, if only you knew what theoretical 100pc was. Do we think the teams are still able to add percentage points? Or (by the America's Cup proper) will they be at 97% or something, such that racing tends to be really close and tactics make the difference? If the latter, then the "blood on the hands" of the challenger could make the difference.
On the flip side, regarding your point about "whoops moments". I used to do bobsleigh and skeleton. There were those who looked consistent in practice and consistently came in the top six. Then there were those who used their practice sessions to explore lines nobody else was considering. The "non-racing" advantage comes from more opportunities to experiment - figuring out what your high-risk and low-risk options are in given conditions. Do you (depending on your scoreline on a given day) choose a foil that's a bandit for the forecast wind, but risks being unable to take off? Or do you forego a knot of top speed for ol'reliable?
Ink
Active member
As I said The Clyde would be ideal for this.
- Alongside Quayside
- Plenty of depth
- Infrastructure is all there
- Choice of race areas
- All racing viewable from the shore
- Solent is a bit crappy for racing
- England has 'Mozzies' Scotland doesn't
- No midgies on the upper estuary.
- Teams seem to be providing their own 'sheds'
Ink
Active member
awol
Well-known member
Aye, all very well but it's all in the hands of Peel Ports - would they want to play?
Ink
Active member
Well, if the RYS is willing to put the money up, fine. Can't see that happening.
Ink
Ink
Active member
If the money is there to develop unused quayside, even for a couple of years use, yes why not?
Ink
