tcm
...
Harsh, but fair...
Hands up those who have been fined for not having a registration document
Harsh, but fair...
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
Well one reason would be that (according to Sailfree and others) Charter firms often provide a photocopy of the SSR rather than the original. Not that I see what that has to do with the question - I doubt many people would want to cross the channel without a change of clothes but there's no law requiring it. (Cue a load of people saying there is such a law, making up evidence and challenging people to prove the negative.)
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al.carpenter
Well-Known Member
may I?
the point is... (and please do not take it wrongly, I've lived in the UK for 17 or 18 years of my life and loved -most- of it, plus, my wife is "very british" and we have been together 34 years so I have a fair practice of your way of life) as a people you seem to be very easily "taken for what you are not" if you know what I mean. You are very law abiding but stangely, while you do not want a identity card, you fill in census forms every so many years, you have post code that puts you roughly within 25 meters of a location, you hold the world record for street video cameras, speed radars etc... you take every thing that is thrown to you with just a grumble but do as you are told. In other word, you seem as a people, rather ... "good listeners and followers" (this being my own opinion and not to be taken as "The Truth" and french people has as many negative points... look at what is happening nowadays -but I love it!). The things I hear that are happening to english people in France, Sardinia, Sicilia etc... or read in forums are unbelievable. So I think that, when someone like one or two on this thread stand up and say - that's enough!- lets not be made fools of ourselves, it sounds a good idea to me... The more people are aware of the law and can stand up to someone trying to con them, the less twisted people will try their tricks on british yachties.
the point is... (and please do not take it wrongly, I've lived in the UK for 17 or 18 years of my life and loved -most- of it, plus, my wife is "very british" and we have been together 34 years so I have a fair practice of your way of life) as a people you seem to be very easily "taken for what you are not" if you know what I mean. You are very law abiding but stangely, while you do not want a identity card, you fill in census forms every so many years, you have post code that puts you roughly within 25 meters of a location, you hold the world record for street video cameras, speed radars etc... you take every thing that is thrown to you with just a grumble but do as you are told. In other word, you seem as a people, rather ... "good listeners and followers" (this being my own opinion and not to be taken as "The Truth" and french people has as many negative points... look at what is happening nowadays -but I love it!). The things I hear that are happening to english people in France, Sardinia, Sicilia etc... or read in forums are unbelievable. So I think that, when someone like one or two on this thread stand up and say - that's enough!- lets not be made fools of ourselves, it sounds a good idea to me... The more people are aware of the law and can stand up to someone trying to con them, the less twisted people will try their tricks on british yachties.
Pye_End
Well-Known Member
I remain unconvinced by your argument, for two reasons.
Firstly that of legislation - out of the two contries who requires compulsory boat registration? And then there are the stories of flares, liferafts etc. which makes me believe that the French marine legislation is rather 'ahead' of ours. Long may it continue.
Secondly, the more fuss we make about there being a hole in the French legislation, if one exists, for registration/fines etc. I can see only one result - the hole will be filled. Save your battles for the things that matter.
SSR is cheap and easy, so why not go with the flow?
al.carpenter
Well-Known Member
???
all I am saying is stop paying fines you should not even be charged with... they are not legal. You are not to give hard earned money to people who are only charging you because they know very well that you are not going to challenge them...
all I am saying is stop paying fines you should not even be charged with... they are not legal. You are not to give hard earned money to people who are only charging you because they know very well that you are not going to challenge them...
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
Pye_End
Well-Known Member
Jesus, as one urban myth dies another raises its ugly head.
Did I say anything about UK craft being involved?
charles_reed
Well-Known Member
I was fined FF 100 in Carteret on Friday July 19 1991, reduced to an administrative charge of FF10, when I produced the SSR at the Douaniers' 35' later.
As I'm not as obsessional as Toad, the receipt has long since gone into the wastebasket.
One has to admire anyone so entrenched in his own misbegotten opinion as to be able to ignore others' commonplace experiences.
As I'm not as obsessional as Toad, the receipt has long since gone into the wastebasket.
One has to admire anyone so entrenched in his own misbegotten opinion as to be able to ignore others' commonplace experiences.
BrianH
Well-Known Member
What nonsense, not fair at all. He is entertaining and literate. Who else could keep this thread bouncing along in such an obsessive way, it is my morning's delight to read the inevitable next set of postings. You lot too seem to be caught up in it all so if you feel like that just don't click on this thread.
And what's more, he has a point.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
My spider sense is telling me there's no point in asking you what offence resulted in this £9 fine with £1 admin charge.
Are Cherbourg Police entrenched in their own misbegotten opinion as well? (Incidentally, I'm totally open minded. If you post verifiable facts I'll check them.)
Is it really a case of me ignoring them or is it more the case that not one contains the slightest detail that would allow anyone to find out any information whatsoever about this offence? These "commonplace experiences" haven't lead you to any tangible information about this offence, why should they have lead me to anything?
Edit:
Hang on. I thought I recognized the name. A few days ago you made this offer:
Why are you accusing me of ignoring "commonplace experiences" when you yourself are ignoring the actual legislation which would clear this up once and for all?
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al.carpenter
Well-Known Member
Hi Charles Reed,
next time you have a problem like this (or any other reason) in Carteret, call me... I live five minutes away from the Harbour and I will be glad to help... €1,35 is too much to pay to a "joker" officer. I know that nowadays it is the price to pay for a coffe at "La Cale a Kiki" on the quay but it is a question of principle. Fair winds.
PS, anybody on this forum who has a translation problem and cruising the Cotentin peninsula is welcome to get in touch, I will be glad to help as I spend most of my time in France those days. Regards, Al
Grehan
Well-Known Member
Ta
Although this has turned into a bit of a squabble (the reasons for which seem a bit obscure) I've got to say that the original question and the responses it has provoked have been interesting and thought-provoking. "It's been an education", as I think Vinny Jones says in Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels. Thanks all.
Although this has turned into a bit of a squabble (the reasons for which seem a bit obscure) I've got to say that the original question and the responses it has provoked have been interesting and thought-provoking. "It's been an education", as I think Vinny Jones says in Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels. Thanks all.
fireball
Well-Known Member
It has been quite an interesting thread ....
Conclusion I have come to is that whilst it (on balance of probability) isn't a legal requirement for a british flagged vessel to carry or produce original registration papers to the French whilst in their waters, it is a lot easier to produce them and not try to argue your way out of a fine.
Each of my visits to a French port has resulted in the production of my passport and SSR to the marina office - even then they weren't that bothered - I have yet to have the privilige of a boarding ... but when it does happen, my papers are in order and they will be welcomed aboard with a smile.
Conclusion I have come to is that whilst it (on balance of probability) isn't a legal requirement for a british flagged vessel to carry or produce original registration papers to the French whilst in their waters, it is a lot easier to produce them and not try to argue your way out of a fine.
Each of my visits to a French port has resulted in the production of my passport and SSR to the marina office - even then they weren't that bothered - I have yet to have the privilige of a boarding ... but when it does happen, my papers are in order and they will be welcomed aboard with a smile.
charles_reed
Well-Known Member
Answers to your questions, Toad:-
1. Failure to produce the SSR on demand.
2. To correct your misapprehensions, the Police (local municipal authority) or the Gendarmerie (national police) are not involved - it's purely the Douanes or Customs and Excise. Carteret is a long way from Cherbourg, which has no administrative link with the port.
3. I have better things to do (I'm working my boat back, single-handed, from Rethimion in Crete to Mesologgi on the Greek mainland) than waste time on nit-picking with you.
Your lack of experience and blinkered approach ignores the all-important fact that it's not the legislation, but the way the local authorities interpret that legislation that really matters.
I would enjoy watching you trying to argue the case with a Douanes officer, in the manner you've adopted on this thread. Your fate would be rapid and, probably, a salutary experience for you.
PS a summary of the French legislation is available in Bloc Marine - why don't you start arguing with them?
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charles_reed
Well-Known Member
Many thanks for the offer - the incident occurred in the early days of my travels away from the Channel Islands and the Norman coast.
Since then I've discovered that the Douaniers are a convivial bunch, if you recognise the stripes on their sleeve. I actually made quite good friends with the office in la Rochelle, off-duty drinks and lots of valuable local info.
Interestingly, in Mediterranean France, the Douanes attitude is far more relaxed. It's the marinas who want your registration SSR (to determine how much to charge) and your proof of insurance (in case you bash another yacht).
Methinks they've met a few Brit yachties, up north, with attitudes similar to those which Toad appears to display.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
charles_reed said:
Thanks. I'd like to accept this offer.
maxi77
Well-Known Member
I did try to show my papers in Cherbourg but they weren't interested at all, so didn't bother after that. In some places where there was a tourist tax they were interested in how many of us there were, but otherwise no interest. We were boarded in Port Medoc and found the officers to be polite freindly and not without a sense of humour. They checked everything apart from the dog passport.
In Spain and Portugal most marinas do the reporting for customs and immigration so full documentation is required, it does however avoid having to spell everything out to them as they just copy the info from your documents into the computer system.
T
timbartlett
Guest
It would be interesting, because it would ultimately end up going to court -- which would, at least determine whether the law actually exists. But that does seem a rather self-defeating way of finding out whether the law exists -- I don't suppose you would suggest killing someone to find out whether there is a law against killing people!
If you are happy to submit to any demand made by any official, regardless of whether it is legitimate or not, and regardless of how much it costs, then of course that is your prerogative. OTOH, there are many cases of officials attempting to impose penalties that have no legal basis whatsoever, and I find it rather depressing that so many people apparently regard this as perfectly acceptable.
I certainly don't understand why so much vitriol is being heaped upon Toad who is, after all, only trying to establish whether this law actual exists.
So far, despite lots of people insisting that it does, and some saying how easy it is to find it, no-one has yet produced any actual legislation to support their argument. Paraphrases, yes. General advice, yes. But no actual law.
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
That's true, but it is asking a lot. I couldn't produce a reference to any equivalent legislation in this country, let alone another.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
I thought that is what you and Toad were going to do.
It really is a bit daft asking British Yotties to quote French law at you. You have been given a source of the various French laws on the subject (BLOC) and have made no attempt to find out whether they are relevant.
Although we have seen the pretty reliable examples of fines being levied - and you have even seen the receipt, so it is not a figment of somebody's imagination,I suspect there are so few examples coming out of your request because relatively few people read these fora and more likely because any sensible person carries the documentation so the number of penalties is very small. One common feature in the examples where fines are levied is that the culprit was not ignorant of the requirement, but had forgotten to take it with them or it was out of date.
Toad has been going on about this for THREE YEARS and has been consistently advised to seek confirmation from competent authorities rather than haranguing others for not being able to produce something he could quite easily find himself if he made the effort.