Hands up those who have been fined for not having a registration document

[al.carpenter]

Hi

fyg, I have emailed DOUANES FRANCAISES and expecting a written answer anytime soon, which I will post on this forum, so why not be patient? What I do not understand is why the agressivity and bitterness towards somebody who is only trying to help people in not getting ripped off by, lets put it this way, "officers who are often not even knowing that they have no say in what a british yacht has to carry in way of registration" and let it be known that if it happens in the future, stand up for your rights and do not hand out money illegally, this in the interest of everyone. (as have done the ritals...)

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

What I do not understand is why the agressivity and bitterness towards somebody who is only trying to help

I don't understand the agression and bitterness either. You've provided a verifiable fact. You've been totally open about your source. Everything you've done in this seems to have been aimed at providing information and allowing others to check up on what you've found.

I'm astounded at the 'ignorance is bliss' attidude on ybw.

Few people put their tender on the SSR. Yet if the RYA are stating law, rather than merely good practice, dinghies must be on it. (http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/boatingabroad/Pages/boatingabroadpaperwork.aspx)

Don't people want to see this legislation and, if it also applies to dinghies, make sure they register their tenders as well?

So for that reason alone, I'd say ignorance isn't bliss. (There are countless other reasons as well IMHO.)

 

[al.carpenter]

well, to me, it is even a question of principle. Why should you give in to someone who has no right whatsoever to levy a fine on a british yacht? Of course it is easy to make them happy by showing a SSR document but why should you be firm on one point like not wanting an Identity Card and at the same time wanting to show a document that a "uniformed bully" just happen to want regardless of the Law? This is a paradox... Well, let them in their masochism if that's what they want.

 

[Blue5]

fyg, I have emailed DOUANES FRANCAISES and expecting a written answer anytime soon, which I will post on this forum, so why not be patient? What I do not understand is why the agressivity and bitterness towards somebody who is only trying to help people in not getting ripped off by, lets put it this way, "officers who are often not even knowing that they have no say in what a british yacht has to carry in way of registration" and let it be known that if it happens in the future, stand up for your rights and do not hand out money illegally, this in the interest of everyone. (as have done the ritals...)

As one following this thread from a distance I think if peeps can see an official bit of paper stating its not neccesary they would be happier to argue the case from a position of strength.

I am afraid reading through French law and trying to translate its true meaning is not a skill too many on here posess, hands up as one of them, English is bad enough!!

As you say if the officers themselves do not know the law, without any form of written backup you are no doubt at a disadvantage and I can see the logic that a lot will decide its easier just to carry the documents.

I think a lot of the aggression in this thread is born out of frustration, hopefully when you post your definitive reply they can all kiss and make up.

 

[al.carpenter]

Hi. NDH. You DO NOT have to read through french law since it is not applicable on a british flagged yacht....... ONLY british law does and if your boat is legal in UK without a SSR reg then it is legal in France as they cannot ask you for a document your very own government has not made compulsory by law. Do you want me to say it in german or spanish to make it clearer? All the customs reply I am waiting for will show, is that they do not have authority to ask for a document in France if it is legal in the UK not to have one...
When I say further up that the officers will fine you because they do not know the law, I am trying to be kind of "kind" to my compatriots... if you know what I mean... I cannot believe that since I first had a british flagged yacht in 1985 or 1986 in french waters and this for about thirteen years, four of them the last ones and having been controlled many many times, I have never even once been asked for anything else than my bill of sale and insurance certificate. 5 X south to north round canal trips, sailing the Channel, Atlantic and North Sea coasts of France.
You see, in our culture, probably because we are a latin catholic country, it is kind of genetic this behaviour. If you are in position of force, with in front of you someone you know very well will not challenge what you say or do, we tend, not all of us of course, but many I am afraid to say, to "act the cockerel" and it being the mascot of the nation is not innocent. The italians got in the same situation with unregistered crafts under 10mtrs, and they sorted it out to their advantage. Shout louder and we will listen.
On any french forum if I had writen the two or three earlier posts criticizing your people in this way, I would have had reactions twice the length of this thread. I know very well that you either don't give a damn what I am saying or swear in your beard about yet another arrogant french ******* and you probably are right but ... not a sound. This to demonstrate my point. I sure did not mean to hurt you in anyways, I have very good relationships with most of the brits I know but it gets me mad and frustrated no to be challenged, rightly or wrongly. At least, lets feel alive...and kicking.
When I say, citing a french law officer that on a british flagged yacht only british law prevails it means just that. That clubs, organisations, magazines recommend to be SSR registered, fair enough but if you, by any chance are not, you are not to be fined in french waters EVER.

 

[Pye_End]

Hi. NDH. You DO NOT have to read through french law since it is not applicable on a british flagged yacht....... ONLY british law does and if your boat is legal in UK without a SSR reg then it is legal in France as they cannot ask you for a document your very own government has not made compulsory by law.

Is it compulsory to have insurance on a yacht in the UK? Marinas usually require it, but I am not aware that it is law?

So if you are right there are very few document that they need sight of that they can haul you over the coals for, if any at all. So why do people get asked to show them?

 

[Grehan]

Bonjour Al.
Having been on board, in France, quite a lot over the years we've only ever encountered one instance of 'acting the cockerel' - an officious toe-rag (equivalent in French?) who told us not to moor somewhere it was fairly obvious we could. "Respectez-moi, je suis le loi" We later found out he was a well-known *rsehole, prone to drink and a member of the local trip boat 'mafia' - disliked by Anglais and Francais alike.
Otherwise we have (nearly) always found French people to be friendly, civilised and courteous (that's why we're here!) and that 'officials' (people with some kind of authority) (including supermarket cashiers!) respond positively to polite respect, one-to-one, looking them in the eye. Legacy of the Revolution, Citoyen - Egalité! Even if faced with a "Non", a request for assistance from the respected 'official' as to the method to get to "Oui" often works like a charm.
Frankly, whatever the rights or wrongs, or My Rights, or Their Rights, if a Douanier or Policier wants to see my SSR he can, with pleasure. I'm quite interested to find out - eventually? - ever? - what the verifiable legal position is (BTW thanks for mailing the Douane), but I really don't give much more than a fiddler's fck and I wouldn't re-start the Hundred Years War over that.
Maybe I would to get Aquitaine back, though . .
Bien cordialment.

[edit] Liberté
One is probably at perfect liberty not to show a marina (for example) one's insurance certificate. They are equally at perfect liberty not to provide you a berth . . . In a similar vein, I think it is a VNF Regulation that one has to have a registration number displayed on the boat (we've occasionally been asked for it by lock-keepers as we pass through) - that's their regulation for using their waterway network. Maybe one doesn't have it, maybe one doesn't use the inland waterways, it's the same coin. Similarly with the latest ATIS situation - the UK doesn't allow it, yet France, Germany, Holland and Belgium now require that ATIS be featured in any VHF transmission. .

 

[Pye_End]

Few people put their tender on the SSR. Yet if the RYA are stating law, rather than merely good practice, dinghies must be on it. (http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/boatingabroad/Pages/boatingabroadpaperwork.aspx)

The RYA text includes phrases such as 'should enable you to satisfy a foreign customs official'; 'essential'.

If they are taking the view that they want you to be able to go over there and not end up at the local court/cashpoint/policestation etc etc. then it is good advice. As you say - 'if the RYA are stating law' is the critical question.

 

[al.carpenter]

the fine

it is the fines that bothers me most. Of course there are very few crooked officers and few of them honestly thinking that they have to be presented with a ssr reg but, as a matter of fact, if my memory is right, every single time I have been boarded, the procedure started...
officer - morning sir, can I have a look at your passport and the yacht documents?
me - of course officer, here is my ID and here are the bill of sale and the insurance certificate.
officer - fine, thank you, good bye.
end of story.
It is the fact that some yotties have been fined that is troubling me, since a fine is (Proces-Verbal) a serious act, a verbal prosecution... who in his right mind would want to be punished for something that the person punishing him has no legal right to do...for a non existing offence.................????????

 

[Pye_End]

it is the fines that bothers me most. Of course there are very few crooked officers and few of them honestly thinking that they have to be presented with a ssr reg but, as a matter of fact, if my memory is right, every single time I have been boarded, the procedure started...
officer - morning sir, can I have a look at your passport and the yacht documents?
me - of course officer, here is my ID and here are the bill of sale and the insurance certificate.
officer - fine, thank you, good bye.
end of story.
It is the fact that some yotties have been fined that is troubling me, since a fine is (Proces-Verbal) a serious act, a verbal prosecution... who in his right mind would want to be punished for something that the person punishing him has no legal right to do...for a non existing offence.................????????

Ok understood, but you did say:


Affaires maritimes, Douanes, Gendarmerie, Police" when sailing in french waters?" and the answer was straightforward - proof of identity of every person on board, bill of sale for the craft and proof of insurance.

Which I suggest is at odds with:

You DO NOT have to read through french law since it is not applicable on a british flagged yacht....... ONLY british law does and if your boat is legal in UK without a SSR reg then it is legal in France.

For that matter, why do we need to carry proof of identity as well?

 

[Oliveoyl]

Thread drift - not boaty - French gendarmerie

it is the fines that bothers me most. Of course there are very few crooked officers and few of them honestly thinking that they have to be presented with a ssr reg but, as a matter of fact, if my memory is right, every single time I have been boarded, the procedure started...
officer - morning sir, can I have a look at your passport and the yacht documents?
me - of course officer, here is my ID and here are the bill of sale and the insurance certificate.
officer - fine, thank you, good bye.
end of story.
It is the fact that some yotties have been fined that is troubling me, since a fine is (Proces-Verbal) a serious act, a verbal prosecution... who in his right mind would want to be punished for something that the person punishing him has no legal right to do...for a non existing offence.................????????

A few years back we were stopped on a French autoroute, end August traffic, fairly nose to tail, max 100 km/h. A radar had apparently flagged us at over 120, so had sent out motor bike plod to flag us onto the next layby. Which was full of non-French vehicles.
Threw a wobbly, requested photo evidence of our "infraction" (like wot in home country!) - refused! My sarky comment that only non FR cars had been pulled over was met with the threat of a night in the cells.
You just don't argue with the men in blue

 

[al.carpenter]

A few years back we were stopped on a French autoroute, end August traffic, fairly nose to tail, max 100 km/h. A radar had apparently flagged us at over 120, so had sent out motor bike plod to flag us onto the next layby. Which was full of non-French vehicles.
Threw a wobbly, requested photo evidence of our "infraction" (like wot in home country!) - refused! My sarky comment that only non FR cars had been pulled over was met with the threat of a night in the cells.
You just don't argue with the men in blue

let me tell you that as from today (it will not happen soon as my next boat is merely a couple of pages of offsets, a beautiful drawing on paper, and about 8500 hours of hard work away......) if threatened by a french officer of a fine for this particular offence of not producing a ssr reg, they can fine me all they want, hang me, torture me, I will go down with the gendarme I had a 20 minutes chat with 2 or 3 days ago (phone number, date and time on the post) but they will not get a euro out of me.
More seriously, if I know that I am right, I will argue and fight. To tell you the truth, regarding offences, even for the ones I know very well that I am in the wrong I will argue, but nicely. I have so far, touch wood, always managed to get out of it (I am talking about driving offences as I have otherwise never been in trouble with the law) by being polite, respectful of the authority, calm and realising the consequences of my actions, swearing I'll never do it again and I have, but for a couple of times where nevertheless I got off more lightly than they first stated, been let off with a slap on the wrist.... Pfffffff!!!!!! Most cops I ever had to deal with were nice normal guys, on land and on sea.

 

[chinita]

OK, after 172 posts on this subject, how many have admitted to have been personally fined for not having an original SSR Certificate?

 

[maxi77]

OK, after 172 posts on this subject, how many have admitted to have been personally fined for not having an original SSR Certificate?

I think the answer is very few, as most people do check and plan ahead and have the documentation with them. During a month in France I was only asked for documentation once whe boarded in a marina by the Douanier. On the other hand I had to show my Part 1 every where in Spain and Portugal, though I suspect a copy would have sufficed.

Aty the end of the day I just want a quiet life so take the line of least resistance, life, certainly at my age is far to short to tilt at windmills, though those who wish to do so have my full blessing, as long as they don't expect me in the rescue party.