toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
Many thanks! I'm sure a lot of people will be grateful for this, and if the information turns out to be on the douanes web site then that really would be fantastic.
Hands up those who have been fined for not having a registration document
Many thanks! I'm sure a lot of people will be grateful for this, and if the information turns out to be on the douanes web site then that really would be fantastic.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
Ok, but can you cite your source for this?
BirvidikBob
Well-Known Member
1998 Binic
1000FF for not having a current document. My part one registration had been due to run out so I had sent off the form & cheque for renewal but the new document had still not arrived by the time we were due to leave on our annual summer cruise. The previous document was valid until 2 days into the cruise. We went anyway - I'd never been asked for it. When we were boarded in Binic the reg was 10 days out of date.
Despite my explanations we were fined the aforementioned 1000 FF, in cash, no cards or cheques. They directed me to an ATM.
When I came to the Douaniers vehicle to pay I joined a queue of irate yotties of varying nationalities. They seemed able to find a reason to fine almost everyone.
1000FF for not having a current document. My part one registration had been due to run out so I had sent off the form & cheque for renewal but the new document had still not arrived by the time we were due to leave on our annual summer cruise. The previous document was valid until 2 days into the cruise. We went anyway - I'd never been asked for it. When we were boarded in Binic the reg was 10 days out of date.
Despite my explanations we were fined the aforementioned 1000 FF, in cash, no cards or cheques. They directed me to an ATM.
When I came to the Douaniers vehicle to pay I joined a queue of irate yotties of varying nationalities. They seemed able to find a reason to fine almost everyone.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
What was the offence?
BirvidikBob
Well-Known Member
Lost in the mists of time...
Couldn't tell you the exact offence (my French isn't too good). Despite my protestations they insisted that it was an offence not to have a current registration certificate on board. They intimated it was pay up or have the boat impounded until I did.
For what was then £100 I paid up rather than take on the might of French bureaucracy.
I never bothered to keep the receipt.
Couldn't tell you the exact offence (my French isn't too good). Despite my protestations they insisted that it was an offence not to have a current registration certificate on board. They intimated it was pay up or have the boat impounded until I did.
For what was then £100 I paid up rather than take on the might of French bureaucracy.
I never bothered to keep the receipt.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Not questioning you about whether you were fined or not, Bob, but are you sure of the year? The need to renew registration did not come in until 2000. Up to that time the "Blue Book" only needed updating for changes of ownesrhip. Mine is the same document from 1963 with the last change in 1980 until superceded by the laminated card in March 2000 (and renewed on two occassions since).
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
Did you write the offence or the offence code in the log book? Do you recall if the receipt had the offence or an offence code written on it?
I assume you were British resident and they knew you were British resident. In fact surely they asked your address so they must have known you were British Resident?
Who issued the fine? Revenue or Police?
Are you sure you were Part one registered?
BirvidikBob
Well-Known Member
Told you the memory was going
Could be wrong on the year - it was around that time. Probably 2000 then as it was the first time I'd had to renew it.
What I wrote in the log book was expressive, but it wasn't the offence code.
How do you tell the difference between the revenue and the police? I was definitely under the impression that they were the Douaniers.
I was actually resident in Jersey at the time, but the boat was British registered, and it was (and is) definitely Part one.
Could be wrong on the year - it was around that time. Probably 2000 then as it was the first time I'd had to renew it.
What I wrote in the log book was expressive, but it wasn't the offence code.
How do you tell the difference between the revenue and the police? I was definitely under the impression that they were the Douaniers.
I was actually resident in Jersey at the time, but the boat was British registered, and it was (and is) definitely Part one.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
Many thanks.
chinita
Well-Known Member
This thread is beginning to drift with obfuscation.
Would people please just answer the question - or not post at all.
Would people please just answer the question - or not post at all.
al.carpenter
Well-Known Member
I think (therefore, I am)
I might be mistaking, but I doubt these fines had to do with ssr documentation. I think some of these old fines had to do with the vat paid or not before sometimes in the early nineties when, if you were a uk national or a french national (it happened to me...) on a british flagged yacht but residing in France, in french waters, after a certain ammount of time you had to pay the vat to the french customs.(most people were not, hanging on in the hope of a EU new ruling). Les Douaniers were quite intent on making you pay. The fines- Dot bla bla bla 1962-... were in my opinion "out of date" tickets as, there has been, as far as I know since then, two or three maritime code changes. (1974 and 2007) and I have been in the sailing community (both, professionaly and privately) and mixing with lots of french and british crews for over thirty five years and have never heard of anyone having been fined for not producing a ssr document. But then, I have not seen it all, done it all so...
On a british yacht, only british law prevails...
I might be mistaking, but I doubt these fines had to do with ssr documentation. I think some of these old fines had to do with the vat paid or not before sometimes in the early nineties when, if you were a uk national or a french national (it happened to me...) on a british flagged yacht but residing in France, in french waters, after a certain ammount of time you had to pay the vat to the french customs.(most people were not, hanging on in the hope of a EU new ruling). Les Douaniers were quite intent on making you pay. The fines- Dot bla bla bla 1962-... were in my opinion "out of date" tickets as, there has been, as far as I know since then, two or three maritime code changes. (1974 and 2007) and I have been in the sailing community (both, professionaly and privately) and mixing with lots of french and british crews for over thirty five years and have never heard of anyone having been fined for not producing a ssr document. But then, I have not seen it all, done it all so...
On a british yacht, only british law prevails...
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
I can report that I was boarded by Douanes in Calais harbour in 2003 and was not fined because I had a registration document. The only paperwork they wished to see was my Part 1 registration and our passports. They were offered VAT paid paperwork, insurance, VHF licence, bill of sale, etc but showed not the slightest interest in any of them.
T
timbartlett
Guest
Oh dear. Tranona won't like that one little bit. Michaelchapman will probably be a bit miffed, too. But it's good news for the rest of us. Thank you very much.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Sorry, Al, you seem rather ignorant on the subject. Might I suggest as primer you read the RYA material on their website which explains the background of the Law of the Sea and the requirement for registration. Then you will realise that this statement is just not true except in a narrow sense related to the concepts of "innocent passage" and "comity" neither of which are relevant to the subject of this thread.
You will discover that there are many situations where a British Yacht is subject to local laws, particularly when in Inland Waterways, but also when transiting ports in the territorial waters of the "Coastal" state. Common examples of this are the requirement to light duties and a a HP related tax in Portugal, be in possesion of a cruising log (DEKPA) in Greece and to pay an annual tax if you keep your boat in France. There are many others in different EU countries. Outside the EU a country can impose specific requirements on foreign vessels which wish to cruise in their territorial waters - Croatia and Turkey are two that are of particular interest to UK yachtsmen.
I think you are also mistaken about fines related to VAT. As far as I am aware (but stand to be corrected) there have never been fines related to VAT levied on private citizens, simply because private citizens cannot normally commit VAT offences. The most common exception is in relation to private importation into the EU where the individual is responsible for paying the tax. There are penalties for not doing so, but the primarey consideration of the revenue authorities is to collect the tax and it is a criminal offence not to pay it. so you may be right - but it would apply to boats being brought into France from (say) the Channel Islands, and my understanding is that the French customs still (correctly) actively pursue this. If, however the boat was purchased in Britain then any VAT matters are the responsibility of HMRC and the Douanes would have no interest, even if the boat was kept permanently in France.
Despite your apparent confusion on these issues, I hope you will be able to shed more light on the specific question of this thread.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Why should I not like it? If you are happy to take the second hand account of a verbal exchange with one policeman, while rejecting the first hand accounts of people who have suffered the penalty that is OK by me.
So now, anybody faced with the Douanes demanding a penalty will be able to say something like
"Get off my boat, I am not going to pay you. I have a friend who asked a friend to ask a policeman if there are fines for not having my SSR and he said Non!"
Sounds more like a request for a short stay in a French jail followed by an anguished phone call to the British Consul!
All you have is a new piece of information that casts some doubt - but as in previous posts you have made great play on the fact (according to you) that police, particularly in other countries, routinely do not know or follow the law correctly, I would suggest it is rather unreliable.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
Tranona should be pleased to have his misconception cleared up in the manner he suggested: There is a very simple way of resolving the problem. Why don't you simply write to the French authorities.
I suspect Michaelchapman and Duncan Mack will also be rather relieved that they now have a reason not to cite their sources for the legislation they made up!
So everyone's happy in the YBW garden.
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
He's given the number so it's easy for you, or anyone else, to verify.
Not one single person has been able to identify the "penalty" they suffered. If they could there would be nothing to argue about. Also, unlike AC's not one of their accounts can be verified.
Can you explain these three rather odd paragraphs?
toad_oftoadhall
Well-Known Member
If the need to renew came in 2000 then the document previous to the 2000 one would not have been marked with an expiry date. Unless I'm missing something.
al.carpenter
Well-Known Member
that's so easy...
why don't you just call this number in my earlier post, this is the direct line to the search and control maritime brigade in Cherbourg, (or in the" pages jaunes" -Gendarmerie Maritime of any middlesized french port) I am sure the officer there, or one of them speaks english and will be glad to confirm my words. You will never be asked to provide a ssr document as the british law does not requires you to hold one. I am no friend of Toad as I have never met or communicated with him, nor do I want to take part in any quarrel, just trying to inform people on this forum and reporting words from someone whose job it is to make sure the law is enforced. Now you can do whatever you want with it... As well as telling you of my own experience of having been checked in Boulogne, Le Havre, Paris, Le Frioul, Cassis and a few more places I do not remember the name of, and only produced my bill of sale and my insurance certificate (a photocopy of them...) and never ever had any trouble, not even a raised eyebrow. (but then again, I am tall, handsome, charming with a disarming smile and not afraid of a kalachnikov...) regards, al
why don't you just call this number in my earlier post, this is the direct line to the search and control maritime brigade in Cherbourg, (or in the" pages jaunes" -Gendarmerie Maritime of any middlesized french port) I am sure the officer there, or one of them speaks english and will be glad to confirm my words. You will never be asked to provide a ssr document as the british law does not requires you to hold one. I am no friend of Toad as I have never met or communicated with him, nor do I want to take part in any quarrel, just trying to inform people on this forum and reporting words from someone whose job it is to make sure the law is enforced. Now you can do whatever you want with it... As well as telling you of my own experience of having been checked in Boulogne, Le Havre, Paris, Le Frioul, Cassis and a few more places I do not remember the name of, and only produced my bill of sale and my insurance certificate (a photocopy of them...) and never ever had any trouble, not even a raised eyebrow. (but then again, I am tall, handsome, charming with a disarming smile and not afraid of a kalachnikov...) regards, al
Pye_End
Well-Known Member
Toad has asked specifically for the legal authority on the matter in terms of the exact wording of the original law. Even though there is a certain reliance on the police for knowing the law, this still does not satisfy Toad's requirements.
If the legislation is not available on the web for all to see I cannot see any way that he to clear this up without resorting to a solicitor who deals with specific area - probably French, and requiring hands to be crossed with silver.