Hands up those who have been fined for not having a registration document

[mike_bryon]

Tim, you asked people to put their hands up and when they did you weren’t satisfied.

We have different priorities. I have voted with my keel and left for example corrupt or incompetent bureaucrats and their laws in my wake. If I am not welcome somewhere then I don’t go there or I go somewhere else. You and Toad feel strongly about it so fight it if to your hearts content but I will be surprised if you get a large following on the livaboard forum.

 

[timbartlett]

You have been given a source of the various French laws on the subject (BLOC) and have made no attempt to find out whether they are relevant.

That is like claiming that Reeds is the definitive statement of UK legislation !

Although we have seen the pretty reliable examples of fines being levied

I don't think Toad has ever doubted that the penalties have been levied. I certainly have not. But I find it very odd that no-one is able to identify the law that they are alleged to have infringed, and no-one has been fined by a court.

Toad ... has been consistently advised to seek confirmation from competent authorities

Al Carpenter has approached the appropriate authorities, and has been told that the French have not and cannot impose compulsory registration on British boats, and Jaba has pointed out that the french government has reminded its officials in some parts of the Med that they are not allowed to demand registration from Italian boats.

rather than haranguing others for not being able to produce something he could quite easily find himself if he made the effort.

I am inclined to agree with Fireball, that the balance of probability, on the evidence we have seen, is that there is no such law. And if it does not exist, then it is nonsense to suggest that anyone could find it "easily": no matter how much effort he makes, he will never find something that does not exist.

If it really is as easy as you suggest, why don't you just post the relevant link (I am sure it would be somewhere on http://vlex.fr/jurisdictions/FR)?

I entirely agree that having a registration document on board minimises this particular source of aggro. But I really don't see why you have such a strong objection to anyone asking the question.

If you can tell us what was the alleged offence and which law you were supposed to have infringed, better still.

And if you can find a link to the actual legislation, that would be perfect.

Tim, you asked people to put their hands up and when they did you weren’t satisfied.

People have, indeed, "put their hands up". But I was hoping that someone might be able to identify the law that they had pleaded guilty to infringing. So far, that has not happened. I understand the "pay up and move on" attitude, but I remain astonished that the only people who have ever questioned its legality have been Italians ! What is it about us British that makes us so bl00dy submissive?

 

[mike_bryon]

“astonished that the only people who have ever questioned its legality have been Italians ! What is it about us British that makes us so bl00dy submissive?”

And what’s so astonishing about Italians questioning a law and what makes you think the British are exceptionally submissive and please don’t include me in the ‘us’.

In my opinion you are relying on some ridiculous nationalist generalisations and that means you can only arrive at mistaken conclusions.

 

[charles_reed]

Naiveté abounds.

By flying the national ensign, when abroad, one agrees to comply with local law.

The French, demand that all boats are registered and have documentation to prove it. Their Douaniers have power to levy on-the-spot fines.

By all means let Toad and Tim go and argue the toss with a French Douanes official, stand up for their rights and demand the relevant legislation. Then stand back and watch the outcome...

Re the Brits being submissive - it's a comment made to me by many of my continental friends - Netherlands, French, Italian - that we'll (Brits) put up with any officially-imposed indignity and do nothing about it but increase our level of grousing to each other.
Strikes me this thread is a marvellous example of just that - catharsis by complaint.

Please Toad, do us all a favour - take the matter up with the relevant French, Netherlands etc governments and come back to this board with a full report.

 

[Tranona]

That is like claiming that Reeds is the definitive statement of UK legislation !

If it really is as easy as you suggest, why don't you just post the relevant link (I am sure it would be somewhere on http://vlex.fr/jurisdictions/FR)?

The reference to BLOC is because all the relevant legislation and guidance for what is required is listed there. Not suggesting that makes it law, but does sort of suggest such laws exist - or are they (like the RYA, the CA etc) just making it up?

I have no pressing need to get formal confirmation from the French authorities that these sources are right - I believe they are.

However, poor old Toad is at a real loss, because for all his posturing he seems not to have the slightest inclination to check these sources himself - only demanding other people do it for him!

So if you want to move forward from the current accepted position that such a law exists and people have been penalised by the Douanes over a considerable period of time for not having the correct documentation you need to do something positive. You can speculate all you like that the law does not exist, or if it does it can be challenged, or it doesn't exist and the Douanes are bent or incompetent - or any other reason that comes into your head. The fact remains that the only new piece of information that has come out is that one policemean (not Douanes) suggests it is not an offence. He also (via your informant) gave you a website to contact the Douanes for advice. Stunned by the silence from you on this front.

I think the vulgar expression is "Put up or shut up"

 

[timbartlett]

And what’s so astonishing about Italians questioning a law

Nothing. The thing that is astonishing is that the other nation that seems to be significantly affected (the UK) has not questioned it.

what makes you think the British are exceptionally submissive and please don’t include me in the ‘us’.

This thread, and many others, in which British people (apparently happily) accept any diktat handed down by any official (no matter how junior) as though it were law -- even to the extent of handing over "penalties" for alleged "offences".

In my opinion you are relying on some ridiculous nationalist generalisations and that means you can only arrive at mistaken conclusions.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "relying on some ridiculous nationalist generalisations", but I assure you that I am not relying on anything.

When someone is able to refer me to the french legislation that requires British vessels to carry registration documents in France, I shall rely on that. Until then, I rely on nothing.

 

[timbartlett]

I think the vulgar expression is "Put up or shut up"

Exactly so.

You (and others) have asserted that there is a law. I (and others who have looked) can't find it. That, of course, is exactly what one would expect if the law did not exist.

You have asserted that it is "easy" to find, yet you steadfastly refuse to tell us where, and send us, instead, on wild goose chases such as Bloc. That too, is exactly what one would expect if the law did not exist.

If you can't or won't contribute the information that you claim to possess, why don't you just drop out of this thread? Put up or shut up.

 

[capnsensible]

Self Importance will never sbstitute a passport, visa, car, boat or aeroplane registration. The vast majority of people are clearly sensible enough to travel abroad with documents to avoid POTENTIAL problems.

There is only one soap box country, the rest do not give a t0$$ for argumentative whingers.

 

[Tranona]

Exactly so.

You (and others) have asserted that there is a law. I (and others who have looked) can't find it. That, of course, is exactly what one would expect if the law did not exist.

You have asserted that it is "easy" to find, yet you steadfastly refuse to tell us where, and send us, instead, on wild goose chases such as Bloc. That too, is exactly what one would expect if the law did not exist.

If you can't or won't contribute the information that you claim to possess, why don't you just drop out of this thread? Put up or shut up.

It is NOT a wild goose chase. The laws are listed there. Have you checked them out? It may end up with you finding the laws do not apply, or there is not a penalty, but the point is you have not checked them out.

I don't know, and have never claimed to know exactly what law applies. All I know is the evidence that such a law exists is overwhelming based on peoples' experiences and the advice of many authoritative sources dedicated to giving advice to yachtsmen.

If you think all this is wrong then quote your reasons for saying it is wrong.

And, please, no more bent copper stories.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Catch 22

I apologise for not reading all posts, so this may already have been mentioned. The fines occur not because there is a law covering the situation, but because this is a Catch 22 question. It arises in all countries which have compulsory registration.

1. Local law requires all local vessels to carry current registration documents.

2. If a vessel does not carry a registration document, it must be able to prove that it belongs to a class of vessel and country that does not require registration.

3. The only universally acceptable such proof is a registration document.

Of course, a court may well accept your appeal against an on the spot fine, and will probably find for you. If you wish to hang around that long, accrue the alternative evidence, obtain translations, pay the Advocate . . .

 

[capsco]

I apologise for not reading all posts, so this may already have been mentioned. The fines occur not because there is a law covering the situation, but because this is a Catch 22 question. It arises in all countries which have compulsory registration.

1. Local law requires all local vessels to carry current registration documents.

2. If a vessel does not carry a registration document, it must be able to prove that it belongs to a class of vessel and country that does not require registration.

3. The only universally acceptable such proof is a registration document.

Of course, a court may well accept your appeal against an on the spot fine, and will probably find for you. If you wish to hang around that long, accrue the alternative evidence, obtain translations, pay the Advocate . . .

That seems to me to be a very accurate summary of this issue.

 

[timbartlett]

Self Importance will never sbstitute a passport, visa, car, boat or aeroplane registration. ...There is only one soap box country, the rest do not give a t0$$ for argumentative whingers.

This has nothing to do with "self-importance" or "argumentative whingers". It is a simple matter of trying to establish a fact. I still fail to see why you and Tranona seem to find that so offensive. And until we know what the law says -- if, indeed, it actually exists and says anything at all -- then there is nothing to argue with or whinge about!

I (and others who have looked) can't find it. That, of course, is exactly what one would expect if the law did not exist.

It is NOT a wild goose chase. The laws are listed there. Have you checked them out? It may end up with you finding the laws do not apply, or there is not a penalty, but the point is you have not checked them out.

This is a good example of the fundamental problem here. You have no evidence that I have not "checked out" the references you have given, yet you choose to believe it -- even though you have quoted the post in which I specifically said that we had looked for the law but had not found it.

Jim B's Catch 22 post sums it up -- although I would question the assertion that a registration document is the "only acceptable" evidence of nationality. It's probably the only universally acceptable evidence, but the combination of a bill of sale, the owner's passport, a UK radio licence would probably be accepted by a court, even if they were not accepted by a local jobsworth with a quota to meet.

 

[al.carpenter]

Well...

the few posts above help me understand why a few millions of brits in the streets claiming a war in Irak is not legal are still led into invading this country... why so many immigrants are trying to get into the country and are able to claim benefits in two or three different cities (seen with my own eyes) or two or three of them working in the industry on the same clocking card (seen with my own eyes) or work illegaly on the farms in Norfolk or Suffolk or in renown food factories for peanuts wages well under the legal minimum, with the Authorities well aware of these facts (seen with my own eyes) without any problem. That's probably why you make so good soldiers, you are good at doing what you are told without even trying to challenge the facts as long as a "leader" has decided for you.
If the leader is an idiot (like the one in charge of France at the moment... watch him being kicked out in the next few weeks...) it does not matter, let's follow him anyway.
To come back to the subject of the thread, if you are glad to donate your money to the french without questioning whether you really have to, then as a french, I thank you for this generous gesture. A french law enforcing officer will not be able to fine a british yacht for not producing a SSR document, not legally anyway which does not mean that he will not try, knowing that he can, because you are not going to challenge him to get a few hundred pounds out of your pocket straight into his own (if he happens to have found an old 1960ies fines dockets) or in most cases in the state pocket which is just as bad.
If, when on board my own GB flagged yacht an officer had not been satisfied with what I gave him or, as a matter of fact I have given the authorities tenth of times and never once a SSR reg, I would have politely asked him to sort the matter with Buckingham Palace or, if Her Majesty the Queen was too busy to talk to him to take the matter with the british consul in the nearest town. Somehow they never tryed it with me. Believe you me, they are well aware that they cannot fine you for that matter. Speeding, trespassing, mooring, drinking offences ok, no problem. No SSR docs... NO NO NO. Any way, just before getting out of this thread which is becoming in my opinion frustrating to read as, as everyone knows... "knowledge is power" I would recomend anyone in doubt to call any gendarmerie or customs office and ask them the question... I did and got my answer. And no, the "BLOC MARINE" is no maritime code and address french yachts which do have to be registered. And for you own govern and contrary to what was mentionned above, Carteret is not far from Cherbourg, only 22kms by road and is in the Cherbourg maritime district, furthermore, "Police" is not a municipal force.
The "Police" is a national civilian armed force in charge of law and order in cities. Training takes place in national police academies and its authority is the departement de l'interieur (Home Office). The "police Municipale" is a local force and merely City Council employees taking orders from the Mayor.
The "Gendarmerie Nationale" is a military force dealing with suburbans and countryside (small towns and villages) and coastal or aerial matters of law and order. They are armed law officers and trained in army colleges and are under the authority of the armed forces department (MOD), the ministere des armees and,
regarding some offences the ministere de l'interieur... "Douanes" deal with goods and people in and out of the country. "Affaires maritimes" deal with anything that floats around the coast and registrations, licences etc and answer to the prefet maritime. "Police de l'air et des frontieres" deals with people mouvements in airports and borders or what is left of them... Hope this helps. Fair wind to all and do not forget your SSR registration docs...

 

[timbartlett]

By flying the national ensign, when abroad, one agrees to comply with local law.

That is utter, absolute bo11ox.
By flying your national ensign when abroad, you are declaring your nationality -- i.e. you are identifying the flag state to whose laws regarding registration, manning, safety equipment etc. you conform.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

If a vessel does not carry a registration document, it must be able to prove that it belongs to a class of vessel and country that does not require registration.

Where does it say that in French law? Seems far more plausable to me that the onus would be for the local plod to prove it's a French Boat, not for the boat owner to prove that it's a British Boat. Either way, the direction of the onus will be stated in the legislation itself once it's presented.

Anyway, nobody has suggested there's a law that requires a boat merely to prove it is a British Flagged vessel. The offence described relates specifically to failure to produce an original registration document.

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

I'll find you the original French legislation which you can download and translate at your leisure.

Thanks. I'd like to accept this offer.

 

[DownWest]

Blimey, you guys still at it??

Toad, one thought, under the code Napoleon, you are guilty until proved innocent. So the production of a document to prove your reg, rather than them having to prove otherwise is likely the norm. Don't forget that most of europe (certainly the bits that I have lived in) require one to carry proof of identity. Usually an ID card. Here, they don't issue IDs to foreigh nationals, so I have to carry my passport ( still have a paper driving licence). My wife, not a EU national, carries her 'cart de sejour' (residents permit). I more than once had to vouch for people at the local police shop, who had forgotten their ID and been stopped in a routine 'control', then been hauled off .
I understand what you are trying to do, BUT, isn't easier to just carry the docs?
A

If I have missed posts, sorry, left this one after a couple of pages, it looked a bit like a few from way back....

 

[toad_oftoadhall]

Toad, one thought, under the code Napoleon, you are guilty until proved innocent.

I'm not convinced. Everyone would be in prison. Although there may be some specific offences where the onus works the other way round. Maybe this is one. Until we see it we won't know.

I understand what you are trying to do, BUT, isn't easier to just carry the docs?

But will seeing this legislation prevent anyone from carrying docs? Supposing (and I can't imagine how) someone manages to prove the negative and shows there is no fixed penalty in France for failing to carry an original SSR. Would that prevent anyone from carrying the docs?

 

[Tranona]

This is getting sillier by the day.

Can I summarise where we are now?

There seems to be a law in France that requires yachts to be registered. Don't think that is in dispute. Michael Chapman has posted the reference and it is listed (along with other legislation affecting boating in France) in BLOC.

If you know anything about French Law you will know that it is codified, and if you are required to register your boat and you do not, then there will be a penalty. Because of the codified system the penalty will be automatic and may well be prescribed. Any of you that have been caught speeding in France will know about this. It is less easy to challenge the penalty because of prescription unlike in UK law where the courts have to prove you were in the wrong.

So, the question is whether this law applies to yachts that are not French owned but in French territory. The evidence seems to suggest it does as there are numerous accounts of people being penalised for breaking this law, including from recent threads an account that it applies to Italian vessels, but by concession only those over 10m in length.

The law seems to be enforced by Douanes whose responsibility is much wider than the equivalent in the UK. The accounts from people who have been penalised are very consistent - it is the result of inspection of documents by Douanes. On the other hand we have a report that Gendarmes do not enforce this law on foreign/British yachts - but this may be irrelevant as it is Douanes that seem to have the responsibility.

So, for those of you that still have doubts, you need to firstly establish that the law exists to your satisfaction, which means following up the references you have been given. That will tell you what the offence is, but may not necessarily tell you who it applies to. It is unlikely to say it applies to French owned vessels only, but is more likely to be silent on its scope. This would be consistent with what we see in practice - that is the authorities assume it applies to everybody unless specifically exempt. This approach would be consistent with normal French legal principles. If you believe that although not stated, the law should not apply to non French vessels then you will need to persuade the French government to specifically exclude them. Otherwise the authorities will continue to act as they seem to do now.

It is not a question of right or wrong or of fairness and victimisation - French law does not work in that way. You are, however, a long way from knowing what is correct, because, like me, you have not read the law, only made your own assumptions about what it is , or you would like it to be (or not). I base my assumptions on the evidence as I see it - yours seems to be just your belief about what it ought to be rather than what is!

So, back to my original advice. Read the law as it is. If you can't do that directly, then seek qualified legal advice from France. Then you will have something concrete upon which to base your arguments rather than just making them up as you go along.

 

[jellyellie]

What I wrote in the log book was expressive, but it wasn't the offence code.

quote of the thread, for sure! made me chuckle.