Hallberg-Rassy vs Bavaria

[dunedin]

One doesn't always have the luxury. Last time we were out in a decent blow, it came unexpectedly after a quiet night in sheltered anchorage. After a few miles motoring to get clear clear of Cape St.Vincent, 3 reefs with 40 - 44 knots on the beam for a few hours. We have long chord Scheel keel with skegged rudder and autopilot coped OK but long keeled Warrior we were in company with had less leeway. I don't think it would have been as comfortable in boat with high aspect keel, spade rudder and far less wetted area.

Back where most of us sail - the OP said didn't intend to cross oceans.

I have spent MANY days in harbour chatting on the dockside to other owners with theoretically better sea boats (Rustler 36s, Sadlers, Contessas, many many HRs) sitting waiting for a F6-7 to pass …….. and the only boats going to sea are the Bavaria & Beneteau charter boats. Fully crewed, they are determined to keep to their schedule and bash onwards in conditions those of us with luxury of time choose to avoid.
So in the real world world of coastal cruising, the Ben/Jen/Bav charter boats put up perfectly well with a lot harder weather and usage than most other boats.

 

[Bobc]

Also, bear in mind that a 90s boat is likely to be built of othophalic polyester resin, whereas something post 2000 is more likely to be Isophalic Vinylester resin, making it much less susceptible to osmosis.

The Bavarias post 2000 are all vinylester. Don't know about the older HRs.

 

[whaup]

Back where most of us sail - the OP said didn't intend to cross oceans.

I have spent MANY days in harbour chatting on the dockside to other owners with theoretically better sea boats (Rustler 36s, Sadlers, Contessas, many many HRs) sitting waiting for a F6-7 to pass …….. and the only boats going to sea are the Bavaria & Beneteau charter boats. Fully crewed, they are determined to keep to their schedule and bash onwards in conditions those of us with luxury of time choose to avoid.
So in the real world world of coastal cruising, the Ben/Jen/Bav charter boats put up perfectly well with a lot harder weather and usage than most other boats.

Yes, indeed. No-one is claiming that the HRs under discussion are objectively better boats for the OPs needs. Nor that Bavarias are in any way unsuitable... a couple of posters have pointed out that there are some situations where the HRs might be more comfortable but I don't think there's any real challenge to the question asked- "...is a Bavaria not much better value?"

It is. They are perfectly adequate boats, capable of anything the OP is likely to ask of them. There is no compelling reason to buy an HR in preference.

It's a wonder HR haven't gone out of business, and that the classifieds are not full of their boats being dumped at rock bottom prices. Strange.

 

[Stemar]

As I said above, I just like HRs better. It's an emotional thing, not necessarily a logical one, but buying a boat just ain't logical in the first place, but buying with your heart is the right thing to do, once you've done a LOT of logical thinking.

Having said that, either will do what you want. I always say, I don't want a boat that will look after me when I'm wishing I'd taken up golf instead, I want a boat that will look after me long after I'm wishing the damn thing would sink and put me out of my misery and, properly sorted, either will do that.

 

[Tranona]

It's a wonder HR haven't gone out of business, and that the classifieds are not full of their boats being dumped at rock bottom prices. Strange.

That is because people see "value" in different ways and for some owning such a boat is something that reflects their values. It is the same for any consumer product. You can construct an argument to support a decision to buy either a Bavaria or an HR, but at the end of the day it is the individual who makes the decision. BTW I own a Morgan which was my best "value" decision ever in terms of product. 18 years so far of enjoyment, mostly just in knowing that I own it.

 

[Tranona]

Back where most of us sail - the OP said didn't intend to cross oceans.

I have spent MANY days in harbour chatting on the dockside to other owners with theoretically better sea boats (Rustler 36s, Sadlers, Contessas, many many HRs) sitting waiting for a F6-7 to pass …….. and the only boats going to sea are the Bavaria & Beneteau charter boats. Fully crewed, they are determined to keep to their schedule and bash onwards in conditions those of us with luxury of time choose to avoid.
So in the real world world of coastal cruising, the Ben/Jen/Bav charter boats put up perfectly well with a lot harder weather and usage than most other boats.

Exactly.

Why do people always assume "getting caught in a blow" is high on the list of criteria for choice? 99% of the time the key criteria for enjoyable and safe coastal cruising can be met or exceeded by an AWB. Even the 1% might just be a bit more uncomfortable. Of course the decision might change if your plans require you to spend more time sailing in heavy weather, but that is not what the OP wants.

 

[Bobc]

Exactly.

Why do people always assume "getting caught in a blow" is high on the list of criteria for choice? 99% of the time the key criteria for enjoyable and safe coastal cruising can be met or exceeded by an AWB. Even the 1% might just be a bit more uncomfortable. Of course the decision might change if your plans require you to spend more time sailing in heavy weather, but that is not what the OP wants.

and for the majority of your time spent aboard you're not even sailing.

 

[dunedin]

It's a wonder HR haven't gone out of business, and that the classifieds are not full of their boats being dumped at rock bottom prices. Strange.

The Ben/Jen/Bav/Han boats outsell the new HR by a huge margin - 100x or perhaps 1000x. For good reasons.

But equally some new boat buyers have the luxury of plenty of funds - perhaps from selling a city house, or business. So in the same way that a Skoda Superb is a brilliant car, some with the money choose to pay much more for a bigger Merc, Audi, or perhaps Bentley or Porsche (now it mainly makes SUVs). Not quantifiably 2-3 x better, but a chunk nicer feel and more individual.
Equally some like me choose to spend our money on a smaller low volume boat, rather than a bigger mass produced boat for the same money. Bigger boats can be a liability in some cruising ground, limiting access to small harbours and anchorages.

But I personally wouldn’t buy a massively older boat unless very good reasons.

 

[Tranona]

and for the majority of your time spent aboard you're not even sailing.

It is an education sitting in a boat at a boat show listening to what potential buyers (and real buyers) are looking for and their list of priorities. There is almost an unspoken assumption that the boat will handle the kind of weather the buyer is expecting to encounter. The discussions on "ultimate seaworthiness" and "comfort in a blow" are largely confined to forums and often among people who will never buy a new boat in their lives. However they will inherit the used boats that others have bought new and probably use them in the same way.

 

[doug748]

and for the majority of your time spent aboard you're not even sailing.

Go down that road and the OP might choose a camper van.

As someone said these are two very different boats. The Bavaria (I like Bavs, in general) is the archetypal aft cockpit, light displacement, low ballast, slim keeled, shallow bodied, high windage design. The Rassy is, in many respects, the other end of the scale.
In terms of the question set, Duesouth, the Bavaria is undoubtedly better value for a first, family, coastal cruiser. However you may hate the way it performs and want the Rassy in the end. That's the gamble as the late great Jim Bowen used to say.

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[Graham376]

Back where most of us sail - the OP said didn't intend to cross oceans.

Re-reading his/her posts, I can't find anything to say where he/she intends to sail or whether any experience. For pottering around UK coast a newer Bavaria would I think be a better bet than an aged HR with potential expensive refit not too far away.

 

[rib]

Having sailed around the UK the long way about ten times in different size bav, s. The one thing I would say they are tiring in a big sea and the shallow cockpit does not instill confidence when heeled or hit by big beam seas. Bulk heads shake and the slamming can be alarming... That said I all ways managed it in the six weeks allowed with no major problems. Apart from one missing prop. And a demasting off portland bill..

 

[Bobc]

Go down that road and the OP might choose a camper van.

But that's the truth of the matter. People on here focus on the 0.1% of the time that you might end up in bad weather, rather than the 99.9% of the time that you aren't.

As someone said these are two very different boats. The Bavaria (I like Bavs, in general) is the archetypal aft cockpit, light displacement, low ballast, slim keeled, shallow bodied, high windage design. The Rassy is, in many respects, the other end of the scale.
In terms of the question set, Duesouth, the Bavaria is undoubtedly better value for a first, family, coastal cruiser. However you may hate the way it performs and want the Rassy in the end. That's the gamble as the late great Jim Bowen used to say.

Utter horseshit, usually spouted by people with no knowledge of Bavarias. My Bavaria is heavier than the equivalent Rassy, has a heavy-ballast lead keel, and is in no way any "shallower-bodied" than the Rassy.

 

[Graham376]

Utter horseshit, usually spouted by people with no knowledge of Bavarias. My Bavaria is heavier than the equivalent Rassy, has a heavy-ballast lead keel, and is in no way any "shallower-bodied" than the Rassy.

What model of Bavaria? Would be interesting to compare drawings or photos of the underwater profiles. Most mass production boats I've seen out of the water have much shallower hulls.

 

[doug748]

What model of Bavaria? Would be interesting to compare drawings or photos of the underwater profiles. Most mass production boats I've seen out of the water have much shallower hulls.

Exactly. We have been treated to the usual Pavlovian responses, the OP asked about two specific boats.

Mind you I take the light displacement back, I was thinking of the earlier 36, the Farr 36 is indeed a bit of a porker.

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[Bobc]

What model of Bavaria? Would be interesting to compare drawings or photos of the underwater profiles. Most mass production boats I've seen out of the water have much shallower hulls.

My boat is a Bavaria 49. The closest comparison to this would be the HR 44 (although it's called a 44, the LOA is 47'6", which would be the same if you chopped the sugar scoop off the back of mine.

LWL: Rassy - 42'3" Bav - 43'0"
Beam: Rassy - 4.2m Bav - 4.4m
Disp: Rassy - 13.3t Bav - 13.6t
Keel: Rassy - 5.3t Bav - 5.8t
Draft: Rassy - 2.1m Bav - 2.15m

 

[Tranona]

Exactly. We have been treated to the usual Pavlovian responses, the OP asked about two specific boats.

Mind you I take the light displacement back, I was thinking of the earlier 36, the Farr 36 is indeed a bit of a porker.

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It is too easy to generalise about a make that has such a wide range of boats. Some models are indeed light displacement for their length, as you say particularly the early J&J smaller designs of the late 90s early 2000s. Bigger boats at the same time (like Bobs) were not - in particular the "Ocean" series were similar displacement, size for size to contemporary Moodys and indeed HRs. On the other hand the Farr designs that started to come in around 2010 are much heavier. My 33 is over 5.5tonnes, well over a tonne more than an earlier J&J 33 or even 34. Part of this is because of greater volume of the hull (shorter ends, beam carried aft). A Farr 37 is 7.5 tonnes - much the same as an HR 372 and 2 tonnes heavier than my old J&J 37 from 2001.

Having said that displacement as we know is only one measure and you can't avoid the fact that most Bavarias in the smaller sizes (below 40') over the last 20 years or so are generally flatter bottomed and lightly ballasted so don't behave like an HR. Once you accept that and sail them to their strengths they are very satisfactory.

Edit Bob posted while I was typing. Just out of interest you could do a similar comparison between a Moody 38 and an Ocean 38 with similar results.

 

[Graham376]

My boat is a Bavaria 49. The closest comparison to this would be the HR 44 (although it's called a 44, the LOA is 47'6", which would be the same if you chopped the sugar scoop off the back of mine.

How does this help the OP who's looking at 36 ft boats? Do you have the underwater profiles to compare? I do know a friends Bav 37 has a much flatter underwater profile than my Moody and I would expect the HR to be deeper as well.

 

[dunedin]

Re-reading his/her posts, I can't find anything to say where he/she intends to sail or whether any experience. For pottering around UK coast a newer Bavaria would I think be a better bet than an aged HR with potential expensive refit not too far away.

Post #1 - “If I don't plan to cross oceans, is a Bavaria not much better value?”

 

[doug748]

It is too easy to generalise about a make ...........

Indeed it is, which is why I confined my remarks to the two boats mentioned in the opening post.


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