Hallberg Rassy 29 windlass, teak deck and liveaboardability

[GabrielS]

Hello YBW community.
After a few years of deliberating, and conversations with friends who liveaboard, I have decided that it would make sense for me to buy a small sailboat and make the leap myself. In my search for a boat I have some across a few examples of the Hallberg Rassy 29 in Denmark and Sweden that are within my price range. As I have family in Denmark, and a family friend who is in the process of starting up a marine service business, it seems pretty ideal. However, I have never been on an HR29 and I have a few questions I was hoping the forum would be able to help answer.
A) I am 5'11, would the HR29 be suitable as a liveaboard? Headroom would be an issues on most boats of this size I imagine and I am somewhat taking the approach that this will be 'camping on the sea'. Are there any other reasons the HR29 wouldn't make a good liveaboard?
B) Most of the HR29's I have seen for sale do not seem to have a windlass. Is this fairly straightforward/expensive to install?
C) My biggest concern is with the teak decks, unless they have been replaced they are coming up to 30-40 years. Any issues or experience with this? I have seen one with the teak deck replaced with GPR, should this be a big selling point? Does it have an adverse effect on the resale value of HR's? (In case I want to upgrade in a couple of years)
D) Any know issues with the HR29, or anything in particular to look out for with this model?
Thank you in advance for taking your time to read my post and respond.

GabrielS

 

[johnalison]

I don't know the 29 well but I have been on one or two. They are good boats and well set up for a couple, though we once met a crew of four who seemed very happy.
There is a lot of information on the HROA forum, but this is only open to members, of which I am one. I will get brownie points if I can persuade you to join.
The teak deck will depend very much on its condition rather than age. It is said that HRs of that era were decked with forest rather than plantation teak and therefore more durable. Most boats in the Baltic will have been wintered under cover, and so 30-40 yrs may well mean a deck in good condition. Even if there is some wear, HR decks are pretty thick and can cope with refurbishment once or twice before needing replacement. I wouldn't have thought that a teak deck would have been replaced with GRP, more likely it was specified without teak in the first place, which I think is the case with most 29s.
Anchoring is seldom taken seriously by Denmarkians, in fact many of their boats don't even have anchor rollers. With a similar sized boat we used a 25lb CQR with rope and chain. This was not too much without a windlass, which only adds weight and complication. You could even use a lighter modern anchor. Our 34 lies well to a 10Kg Bruce which is our spare.

 

[BabaYaga]

D) Any know issues with the HR29, or anything in particular to look out for with this model?

They came in 4 and 5 berth versions, for a live aboard I suspect more cockpit locker storage space would be more useful than the quarter berth.
There is a lot of fine video work on this pretty boat sailing from this source:
S/Y Dolphin Dance

 

[GabrielS]

I don't know the 29 well but I have been on one or two. They are good boats and well set up for a couple, though we once met a crew of four who seemed very happy.
There is a lot of information on the HROA forum, but this is only open to members, of which I am one. I will get brownie points if I can persuade you to join.
The teak deck will depend very much on its condition rather than age. It is said that HRs of that era were decked with forest rather than plantation teak and therefore more durable. Most boats in the Baltic will have been wintered under cover, and so 30-40 yrs may well mean a deck in good condition. Even if there is some wear, HR decks are pretty thick and can cope with refurbishment once or twice before needing replacement. I wouldn't have thought that a teak deck would have been replaced with GRP, more likely it was specified without teak in the first place, which I think is the case with most 29s.
Anchoring is seldom taken seriously by Denmarkians, in fact many of their boats don't even have anchor rollers. With a similar sized boat we used a 25lb CQR with rope and chain. This was not too much without a windlass, which only adds weight and complication. You could even use a lighter modern anchor. Our 34 lies well to a 10Kg Bruce which is our spare.

Thank you, and I will definitely have a look at that forum. Can I join without being an owner?

The add is in Swedish and only states that the teak deck was replaced with plastic. Ive emailed them for more information. I guess one concern would be how the replacement was carried out and if there will be some hidden problems down the line. But it is good to know the teak deck is not a general issue on the HR's.

As I plan to spend a fair bit of time at anchor I think it would be preferable to have a windlass. I can't imagine it would be fun to pull up 15m+ of chain in anything but flat seas. But I have never hauled an anchor up manually, maybe it is just the exercise and excitement I need.

 

[GabrielS]

They came in 4 and 5 berth versions, for a live aboard I suspect more cockpit locker storage space would be more useful than the quarter berth.
There is a lot of fine video work on this pretty boat sailing from this source:
S/Y Dolphin Dance

That is a good point, any liveaboard I have been on with a pilot birth it is only used for storage. At least then you'd have top access.

Thank you for the link. Some stunning video.

 

[johnalison]

Thank you, and I will definitely have a look at that forum. Can I join without being an owner?

The add is in Swedish and only states that the teak deck was replaced with plastic. Ive emailed them for more information. I guess one concern would be how the replacement was carried out and if there will be some hidden problems down the line. But it is good to know the teak deck is not a general issue on the HR's.

As I plan to spend a fair bit of time at anchor I think it would be preferable to have a windlass. I can't imagine it would be fun to pull up 15m+ of chain in anything but flat seas. But I have never hauled an anchor up manually, maybe it is just the exercise and excitement I need.

I have to admit that I don't know what the association's view is on prospective owners joining. The annual fee is £40, which you might consider worthwhile if it is possible. Have a look at their website, and think about using 'contact us' if you want to ask. The Hallberg-Rassy Owners Association - Home Page

Depending on where you want to anchor, you might want to consider a few metres of chain and the rest rope, which is what we had on our old Sadler 29. This made pulling up the 25lb anchor fairly easy. We added the refinement of having a heavy shackle as an angel to keep the line below keel depth in turning tides. I'm sure that some 29s have windlasses but it's not something I have thought about.

 

[Kelpie]

Unless you are of less than average strength/fitness I would not be worried about the lack of a windlass on a 29ft boat.
Even on our 39ft boat, with a 25kg anchor on 10mm chain, I do most of the lifting by hand. However this is only possible because SWMBO is simultaneously motoring the boat forward.
We do have a manual windlass, which is useful if the anchor comes up with a lot of kelp on it, or if it needs broken out. But it's much slower than pulling by hand.
I do intend to upgrade to an electric windlass, but you don't miss what you never had...

 

[pvb]

C) My biggest concern is with the teak decks, unless they have been replaced they are coming up to 30-40 years. Any issues or experience with this? I have seen one with the teak deck replaced with GPR, should this be a big selling point? Does it have an adverse effect on the resale value of HR's? (In case I want to upgrade in a couple of years)

I know a bit about HR teak decks. I owned a 1990 HR352 from 1995 to 2014. During that time, I refurbished the deck twice. I only sold the boat in 2014 because I knew that within 3/4 years the deck would need replacing. The replacement cost is huge, mainly because HR used quite narrow teak planks, which dramatically increase the labour content of the work.. I was looking at £25-30K to replace the deck, and it might have enhanced the resale value by £5K. So I sold the boat instead.

You're looking at the HR29, which (unlike most HR boats) was actually available from new without a teak deck. So it wouldn't be a problem from a resale point of view if an HR29 didn't have a teak deck, unlike most other HR models. If you look at an HR29 which has a dodgy teak deck, don't ignore the possibility of removing it, glassing over the surface and painting it with non-slip. Still quite a lot of work, but much cheaper than replacing a teak deck.

 

[johnalison]

I do intend to upgrade to an electric windlass, but you don't miss what you never had...

Yes, but GabrielS has lived a sheltered life and never experienced the joy of pulling a slimy wet chain up on a wet Thursday morning after a restless night when the wind changed. Rubber gloves are also available, of course.

 

[prv]

Looking at photos of HR29s for sale, it appears that the chain locker extends at least a little way under the deck, aft of the opening hatch. This allows a windlass to be mounted just aft of the hatch and the chain to still drop into the locker. The examples I can find all use a horizontal windlass, so it may be that there isn't space below for the motor of a vertical one, or that may have just been the preference of this small sample of owners.

A windlass may not be absolutely essential on a 29 foot boat, but if you "plan to spend a fair bit of time at anchor" then it would be well worth adding and not too hard to do.

Pete

 

[GabrielS]

I have to admit that I don't know what the association's view is on prospective owners joining. The annual fee is £40, which you might consider worthwhile if it is possible. Have a look at their website, and think about using 'contact us' if you want to ask. The Hallberg-Rassy Owners Association - Home Page

That is good to know and would be a really good resource. I had a look on their site and you can only register with a boat name, model and number, but I will try to reach out to them.
Thank you.

 

[GabrielS]

Unless you are of less than average strength/fitness I would not be worried about the lack of a windlass on a 29ft boat.
Even on our 39ft boat, with a 25kg anchor on 10mm chain, I do most of the lifting by hand. However this is only possible because SWMBO is simultaneously motoring the boat forward.
We do have a manual windlass, which is useful if the anchor comes up with a lot of kelp on it, or if it needs broken out. But it's much slower than pulling by hand.
I do intend to upgrade to an electric windlass, but you don't miss what you never had...

I am of above average laziness, haha.
Point taken, and it seems alot of people make do without a windlass, even liveaboards, so I shall move it to the 'nice to have but not essential' list

 

[GabrielS]

I know a bit about HR teak decks. I owned a 1990 HR352 from 1995 to 2014. During that time, I refurbished the deck twice. I only sold the boat in 2014 because I knew that within 3/4 years the deck would need replacing. The replacement cost is huge, mainly because HR used quite narrow teak planks, which dramatically increase the labour content of the work.. I was looking at £25-30K to replace the deck, and it might have enhanced the resale value by £5K. So I sold the boat instead.

You're looking at the HR29, which (unlike most HR boats) was actually available from new without a teak deck. So it wouldn't be a problem from a resale point of view if an HR29 didn't have a teak deck, unlike most other HR models. If you look at an HR29 which has a dodgy teak deck, don't ignore the possibility of removing it, glassing over the surface and painting it with non-slip. Still quite a lot of work, but much cheaper than replacing a teak deck.

Very good info, thank you. I was a bit worried about teak decks, but I get the impression they are not necessarily as big an issue on the HR's as they might be on other boats.
While this pandemic is raging on, I have more time than money and little else to do, so I am not to afraid of doing some work.

 

[GabrielS]

Looking at photos of HR29s for sale, it appears that the chain locker extends at least a little way under the deck, aft of the opening hatch. This allows a windlass to be mounted just aft of the hatch and the chain to still drop into the locker. The examples I can find all use a horizontal windlass, so it may be that there isn't space below for the motor of a vertical one, or that may have just been the preference of this small sample of owners.

A windlass may not be absolutely essential on a 29 foot boat, but if you "plan to spend a fair bit of time at anchor" then it would be well worth adding and not too hard to do.

Pete

Fantastic info and well spotted. I'm in half a mind to download the drawing and mock up a 3D model to get a better idea of the boat.

 

[pvb]

That is good to know and would be a really good resource. I had a look on their site and you can only register with a boat name, model and number, but I will try to reach out to them.
Thank you.

When I first bought my HR352, I joined the Hallberg Rassy Owners Association, but found it wasn't good value.

There is a specific HR29 forum which has a wealth of knowledge and photos in its "Maintenance and refit" section. Look at Hallberg-Rassy 29 Owner's Forum - Index page

 

[Mataji]

If you are looking for a boat to live on as well as sail I would suggest you look at the LM30. Lots of these in Denmark. Excellent boats and probably a lot cheaper than the HR.

 

[johnalison]

When I first bought my HR352, I joined the Hallberg Rassy Owners Association, but found it wasn't good value.

There is a specific HR29 forum which has a wealth of knowledge and photos in its "Maintenance and refit" section. Look at Hallberg-Rassy 29 Owner's Forum - Index page

Joining any club is a matter of what you want out of it. I'm not sure what you mean by not good value, but I don't regard the annual fee as being much to worry about. Much of the fee goes towards the annual magazine, which is often interesting in spite of sometimes making the mistake of publishing my contributions. The technical forums remain active, and the Facebook pages are usually entertaining, as well as being an excellent source for meeting up, something that has been very active during this summer's restricted season. Although orientated towards the South Coast there are members around the country as well as in the Med, and visits to yachting firms and agencies are regular. We have enjoyed extending our companionship beyond those who we meet locally, but I realise that it's not everyone's métier.

 

[peter gibbs]

The 29 is a fine and valued vessel and if the hull, engine and rigging are in order, potentially a good and reliable purchase. Of course, sailing quality is a given with HR but you might have to replace a sail if you go ahead and purchase.

Teak decks wear and look perpetually grey at this age but here's the news; if they aren't lifting at turning points, or splintering where heavily trafficked, then wooden decks will probably suffice. Lifting corners are easily restuck with Sikaflex. A plastic replacement probably means a lookalike teak decking; if professionally applied and in good order, no problems. These deck systems have been about a little while and appear more often now as original equipment.

I go with others over the windlass; a retrofit is not an easy matter, will probably require calibrated chain, so will cost the thick end of £1k DIY. £1.5k installed by a yard.
For a 29 footer you really don't need such heavy gear that you can't handle an anchor manually.

PWG

 

[prv]

will probably require calibrated chain

What does that even mean, in practice?

A boat that size most likely uses 8mm chain. If it's not the typical short-link galvanised chain then it's probably suspect anyway, and if it is then it was almost certainly made as boat anchor chain and will fit an 8mm windlass. There's just no reason for anyone to manufacture boat anchor chain in subtly non-standard sizes and I'm sceptical that there's any significant amount of it out there on any vaguely modern boat.

Installation of a horizontal windlass would be a matter of five holes, some epoxy and sealant, four bolts, and some wiring. Not a five minute job, but not a major refit either. The work wouldn't be a major factor for me in choosing a boat.

Agree with your estimate on DIY price, don't have any experience with yard labour.

Pete

 

[Koeketiene]

Very good info, thank you. I was a bit worried about teak decks, but I get the impression they are not necessarily as big an issue on the HR's as they might be on other boats.

You may want to take another/closer look.
Screwed down teak decks will eventually cause you trouble - regardless of the brand.

FWIW: a lot will depend on your personal situation/requirements, but we looked viewed a couple of HR312 earlier this year when we were looking to buy.
We found them quite 'small' for a couple. We found the forward cabin in particular somewhat claustrophobic.