Greek Tax (how will it affect you)

[Sybaris]

Tempers are running high in the Greek tax mega thread and I propose we take a step back and compare how the proposed tax will actually affect each one of us.

As OP I would be really appreciative if we could keep this thread as pure information only, so please only one thread entry per member. If you don't want to disclose your indivdual situation, there is need to add an entry to the thread.

As things stand now (as I understand it) it looks as if anyone entering Greek waters will have to pay a tax as follows (everything so far indicates that the tax will not be charged while stored on land):

• Up to 12m (up to €400 / calendar year), full amount due when entering Greek waters (or launching) regardless of time spent in Greek waters for the rest of the calendar year. The longer you stay in Greek waters the cheaper it becomes each year, i.e. for a 12m boat spending the full year in the water the cost would be €33 / month.
  
• Above 12m €10 / meter / calendar month spent in Greek waters payable up front for the whole year with a 30% discount, or payable monthly while in Greek waters.

Our Case Financially:
We will have to pay €156 / month. If I were to spend the whole year in Greek waters (paying the year upfront) it would be €109 / month. For us the geography of Greece is such that we can spend most of our time here on anchor, so we spend virtually no money at all in expensive marinas. In many other countries the possibilities to anchor out as much (comfortably and safely) is limited, and with the ever increasing cost of marinas that would be prohibitive for us. On top of that, the price for going onto a town quay is very cheap in Greece. All in all, for us I don’t consider the new cost excessive. For 2014 we will spend about 4 months Greek waters.

Per

 

[Tony Cross]

For our 13.7m yacht we'll be looking at €1370 for a year, reducing to €959 if the 30% discount does end up being for paying in advance (but that's by no means agreed yet, it's still for "boats permanently moored in Greece" whatever that means). We probably will spend the year in Greece but even if we were not I'd still pay for a year. This is because if you pay monthly you provide an excellent paper trail to show that you spent more than 182 days out of 365 in Greece. That makes you tax resident and then things can get very messy.

So paying for a year hopefully gets me a 30% discount and also avoids the possibility of falling blindly into being seen as a tax resident. So it's probably the cheaper option in the long run.

BTW. According to the marina here from April 1st it will not be possible to pay any bill in Greece over €500 in cash. Only credit cards or bank transfers will be accepted.

Sybaris, it might be interesting to add a poll to this thread (if you can now it's live) to see who will definitely leave, who will definitely stay and pay etc. etc.?

 

[Chris_Robb]

For our 12.3 meter yacht, we plan to sail between May to 1st July and mid sept to mid october. The boat is currently in the water at Leros.

I will however be staying this year as we have Marina Contract till next year (enacted before we knew about the tax).

So what are the uncertainties:
1. We are in the water. So will we immediately have to pay back tax to the start date? - thought now to be delayed 2 months? I doubt whether I would be fined for non payment - that would cause somewhat of a hissy fit:disgust:

2. If the tax starts running when we get there, the next uncertainties are: Will the charge be by Calendar month - or Monthly from date? If the former we will pay 4 months (€492), if the later we will pay 3 (€369). This is therefore not too desperate for me.

3. a) The next uncertainty will be, How physically will the tax be paid? If we pay online on their new system (doesn't exist yet) how will we pay the money? If they are sensible they will allow credit card payments (so easy). Bank Transfer will be a pain if you only have a UK account (although I can pay through Barclays online), and approx £20 a throw with a bad exchange rate.
b) Pay through Port Police enough said
Concern though over the max payment that can be made in cash.

4. You will need to print your receipt. How will you do this without a printer in board?
a) Email it to your marina and ask them to print it.
b) Not sure - show them the receipt on your Iphone? as for (Easy Jet boarding.)

 

[BurnitBlue]

For my one post I will state my objection to being taxed as a visitor. That done, however, as my boat is less than 12 meters the tax I will pay will be a small part of my budget for the whole year and a fraction of how much it would cost if I had to use Marinas.

Hundreds of free, safe anchorages compensate for the tax. If I want to nit-pick, all I need to do is extend my cruising season by three weeks in a free anchorage to save my haul out storage fees in a Preveza Yard to break even with pre-tax days. I won't bother but I reckon it would be a worthwhile calculation for the over 12 meter boats.

I will be staying. If I did leave it would not be because of the tax but simply to explore other lands which is why I bought a boat.

 

[Carmel2]

11.4 so pay the 400 and be done with it.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

For our 13.7m yacht we'll be looking at €1370 for a year, reducing to €959 if the 30% discount does end up being for paying in advance (but that's by no means agreed yet, it's still for "boats permanently moored in Greece" whatever that means). We probably will spend the year in Greece but even if we were not I'd still pay for a year. This is because if you pay monthly you provide an excellent paper trail to show that you spent more than 182 days out of 365 in Greece. That makes you tax resident and then things can get very messy.

So paying for a year hopefully gets me a 30% discount and also avoids the possibility of falling blindly into being seen as a tax resident. So it's probably the cheaper option in the long run.

BTW. According to the marina here from April 1st it will not be possible to pay any bill in Greece over €500 in cash. Only credit cards or bank transfers will be accepted.

Sybaris, it might be interesting to add a poll to this thread (if you can now it's live) to see who will definitely leave, who will definitely stay and pay etc. etc.?

Of COURSE most of us will stay! That is what makes the imposition of this tax on overseas owners so immoral. We are captive by the very nature of what we have committed there. They have said themselves in the previous incarnations of it that it IS an ASSET tax on wayward Greek tax avoiders and nothing more.

Actually, as the OP wants "information only", this thread SHOULD be empty because "information" as hard fact is just what we don't have. A lot of Greeks believe that like the previous attempts, this "new" tax just won't ever happen.

 

[Cardo]

We're 10m on our SSR, so I think we should be out of pocket by €300/yr. I guess if it's an online system, it'll be consistent, rather than a PP officer deciding whether we fall in the 8-10 or 10-12 category.

 

[Appleyard]

We winter ashore in Turkey (10.45 m) ,so would be liable for E400.
I reckon we will wait till we see how the new tax pans out before we decide. So I guess we will spend our hard earned bawbees in Turkey .
Pity,because we much prefer Greece as a cruising area. Luckily we have this option.

 

[jimbaerselman]

We're 10m on our SSR, so I think we should be out of pocket by €300/yr. I guess if it's an online system, it'll be consistent, rather than a PP officer deciding whether we fall in the 8-10 or 10-12 category.

10m is not "above 10m" and therefore falls in the 8 - 10 category. Tough luck on 10.01m guys!

 

[Donheist]

I had been planning to arrive in greece on good friday and sail away to sicily as part of my plan to sail the boat back to england over two seasons. Therefore at a bit under 12m i think i will be paying 400 euro for LESS THAN 24 hours. Is that a record? However i suspect it will be very difficult to transact on good friday and equally unlikely that the tax inspectors are working over the holiday period...

Had i been staying i think i'd have paid and probably tried to squeeze the marina a bit or at least get a freeze such that it wouldn't make that much difference.

 

[sailaboutvic]

My one and only posting on this thread.
In this marina where we been base over winter, I personal know off , three English yacht two Germany two Dutch an Belgium two Italian and an swede these are the yacht that have been here over winter that I we know quite well and where on the way to Greece this year , out of the 11 yacht only one is still stating they will go ,
OK there also many others that have gone home for the winter and what their plain is I couldn’t tell you but it you consider each one of these boat would be spending at less five or six hundred euros a month over the summer six months that quite a lot of money Greece have lost, just on these 10 yacht somewhere around 30,000 Euros if not a lot more .
As for doing a poll on YBW as who will stay and who will go , this thread and the other thread represent less than 0.01% people compere to the amount of cruiser really cruising Greece or on the way to Greece , so the poll would be worth just as much as the poll that the Greek government claim it did , for myself I know of many people who sail and winter out in Greece and so far I have not met one person who have said that they took part in any poll or know of any poll , have you met anyone who has ?

 

[Garry & June 'Friendship']

is this calculated purely on LOA or are there any other hidden penalties for example on Catamarans ?

 

[keithgdg]

On the basis that I will have to pay 4 times €80 to stay all year in Turkey (90 day visa) I might as well well go Greek. The town keys are cheaper and water free...er.

 

[AndrewB]

While I accept the idea of being taxed, the amount Greece wants is far too much, way out of line with that of any other country that charges visiting yachts.

So we will stay, for the time being at least, but intend to be as penny-pinching as possible in order to recover the amount we have to pay. I've spent freely in the past, so this won't be too difficult. On balance, the Greeks will not benefit from this tax, not at least as far as I am concerned.

If I were tempted to be really vindictive I might "shop" all those businesses that do not provide us with tax receipts for goods bought. They are obliged by law to do this, but last year a good 50% didn't. These are the people who have been evading paying their tax: the ones who have made this surcharge on visitors necessary. Too bad they are mostly small guys struggling to get by - if we have to pay Greek taxes, then so should they.

 

[charles_reed]

All governments are thieves - I'm just relieved it's not more. I dread the probable chaos as one tries to pay for it though. Imagine your average Port Police man/woman grappling with a credit card terminal!!!!
Whilst sympathetic to those to whom the tax is a major budgetary element - I'd point out:-
1. They decided on the length of boat they'd use.
2. They'll probably find that Greece is just one of many countries to raise revenue from boat-people. It's still incomparably less expensive than the UK.

 

[RupertW]

We are 12.3m and will sail to Greece around Easter and have an annual berth booked, so will pay for the year, but if its a calendar year we will consider paying monthly depending on whether the discount or 7-9 months is cheaper.

 

[Steve C Cronin]

All governments are thieves - I'm just relieved it's not more. I dread the probable chaos as one tries to pay for it though. Imagine your average Port Police man/woman grappling with a credit card terminal!!!!
Whilst sympathetic to those to whom the tax is a major budgetary element - I'd point out:-
1. They decided on the length of boat they'd use.
2. They'll probably find that Greece is just one of many countries to raise revenue from boat-people. It's still incomparably less expensive than the UK.

Charles,

Don't you remember the stance taken by the PP a couple of years back that they "...are NOT Tax Collectors, please take this ticket to the local tax office in the town"?

Actually, unless you are of a size to pay "Light Dues", the cost of cruising around the UK in a yacht is nIL. It is the cost of berthing in a marina that is so very much higher.

 

[Retired in Crete]

If I were tempted to be really vindictive I might "shop" all those businesses that do not provide us with tax receipts for goods bought. They are obliged by law to do this, but last year a good 50% didn't. These are the people who have been evading paying their tax: the ones who have made this surcharge on visitors necessary. Too bad they are mostly small guys struggling to get by - if we have to pay Greek taxes, then so should they.

Interesting idea! However the Greeks are not the only ones who avoid paying taxes. What about the British live-a-boards who stay in Greece for over six months? They are also obliged by law to become tax resident but many don't. From the top of my head I could name half a dozen, should I report them? After all it is people avoiding paying taxes that caused this new tax to be introduced.

For the record I will be staying in Greece despite the new tax unless some one makes me a sensible offer on my house here.

John

 

[ITH]

If I were tempted to be really vindictive I might "shop" all those businesses that do not provide us with tax receipts for goods bought. They are obliged by law to do this, but last year a good 50% didn't. These are the people who have been evading paying their tax: the ones who have made this surcharge on visitors necessary. Too bad they are mostly small guys struggling to get by - if we have to pay Greek taxes, then so should they.

Really . . .? What about those 'visitors' who smugly pocket the 23% VAT savings by accepting (and sometimes, soliciting) those goods and services without tax receipts: are they not also complicit in evading payment of Greek taxes? Or is your opprobrium reserved only for Johnny foreigner?

For our part, we will pay the €400 (10.65m), since we intend to spend at least two years in Greece
:ambivalence:

 

[Steve C Cronin]

Really . . .? What about those 'visitors' who smugly pocket the 23% VAT savings by accepting (and sometimes, soliciting) those goods and services without tax receipts: are they not also complicit in evading payment of Greek taxes? Or is your opprobrium reserved only for Johnny foreigner?
:ambivalence:

Andrew states the reality far more accurately than you, I'm afraid!