Chris_Robb
Well-known member
I come out on 28th May. It looks like the jet stream is roaring through the med at the moment but declines by mid month. I hope.....
Greek Cruising Tax update from the CA
- Thread starter Chris_Robb
- Start date
I come out on 28th May. It looks like the jet stream is roaring through the med at the moment but declines by mid month. I hope.....
Graham376
Well-known member
Should have gone to Portugal, I hear it's 31 degrees in Alcoutim at the moment - not the case here in N Wales though
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
Can't ague with that Tony , nearly all the boat around me to day other then us have been using Greece to haul out every year but they do live on the hook through the summer,
I did report last month some Greek flag boat that was leaving Greece but I should had said these where quite big boats some where motor boats we only sew and talked to four Greek sailing yachts . (14/15 mts)
I think the point I trying to make badly is if this is what I seeing how many more that I not seeing are moving away .
As for the Greek gov changing there policy cos some are moving away , I not sure they care one way or the other , let's face it look at the way that treat there own people .
If and it's still a IF this tax comes in only a out cry from the marine industry will get them to look at it again .
The real shame here is that all the different country sailing Association plus the marina industry didn't start shouting loud in the begin ,
Then what seems to me work with the Greek gov of finding a way they could bring the tax in .
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Artic Warrior
Member
I keep thinking the same Chris...
I'm near skiathos at the moment and have been here a few years.
And I used to work in faslane in Scotland and it's a beautiful area for sailing but obviously the season is very very short.
But amazing cruising around with proper sailing conditions.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
If you don't mind me says , there tons of good sailing to be done in the Med , you just have to drip your toes in new waters .
Most will love it , only people who don't feel safe unless they got a bay to anchor in that is surrounded by 95% land .
We cruising west coast of Italy, south of France and then Sardinia, maybe not in that order and start with the
Aeolian islands which we on at the moment . ( I can hear the outcry from some , no where to anchor, expenses marina and no harbour to visit without paying ) not to insult some here I won't comment ,
I only say those who met and know me if tho outcry where correct would I be sailing these parts .
vasant
Member
Tony Cross
Well-known member
They did - and got nowhere. The Cruising Association decided that the best approach was to work with Greece to make the tax workable and affordable, and they took a lot of flak in the early days because of that. The CA's approach has yielded many benefits to all sailors, and they are still (through Chris Robb) attempting to engage with the Greek government to reduce the impact of this tax as much as possible. So it's CA 1 - other sailing associations 0.
At the end of the day, the only people who can realistically stop this tax are the Greek voters. And this is an election year.....
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
The STW did take the Greek to court , although in the end they lost but they did fight it .
As for Chris as I said so many times before here and else where , he personally have done a great job dealing with it and all credit to the man he also kept us who are not CA members info .
As for Chris as I said so many times before here and else where , he personally have done a great job dealing with it and all credit to the man he also kept us who are not CA members info .
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
Thats the Swedish Cruising association?
I was in touch with them but they never said anything about a legal case. I was encouraging them to join my complaint to the EU Commission - along with all the others - no real engagement from any except latterly from the German Federation - but they could never get their lawyers to extract digit. I tried to get the RYA involved with the cruising division, and passed over all my correspondence and case files to them - did they do any thing - no.... here is their current info on the website.https://www.rya.org.uk/newsevents/news/Pages/rya-cruising-team-issues-latest-greek-tax-update.aspx
Very historical.
As it was our complaint was rejected on the grounds that the infringement of our rights had not jet happened - but that if the law was introduced as it was to have been, then we would have a case......
However - we got many changes including proper publicity (in the form of the AADE website) a promise not to fine (Late payment and to go willingly to pay) and a backing down on out of use problems..... So now I don't think we would have a case - except incorrect training of Port Police.. which has been partially address but involving the Port Port Police in the AADE site.
So now on countdown for another postponement - to be frank I am probably not going to chase it up as if we have to pay - we will just do it later.
On another tack - I had a call from an Aussie I know sailing in the Aegean - crossing from Turkey to Kos to check in, and he complains of a very strong Customs presence, very active and somewhat aggressive, especially at Kos (Kos though is known for it) - every port they have been in since including Fourni which surprised me. I do wonder that with an Aussi registered yacht Crewed by an English Girl and Australian Skipper, that they are assuming that the English girl is an part owner - hence they only gave the yacht a 1 month TL. I warned to be very careful at Kos and keep her just as crew - but you have to do a crew list.
Vyv reports a much increased Greek coast guard patrols in the Aegean and RTBOSS - the presence of a load of new ribs in Rafini. Are they about to have a major crack down on illegal chartering now in the Aegean???
vyv_cox
Well-known member
We are in Chios now, arguably the easiest trip between Turkey and Greece. Surprisingly, no RIBs seen, although a few warships are around. So it appears that the increased activity may not be on account of migrants.
sailaboutvic
Well-known member
I stand corrected , I could swear if was STW and one of their aguement was that all French boat no matter where they are kept or use already pay a tax so having to pay another tax was unfair .
Tony cross comment had me smiling (CA1 other sailing Association 0 ) what he should had said if any thing was Chris Robb 1 other sailing Association 0 although the other did fight but it just Many of us brits not heard of they effects .
My view is the days have gone where the PP in Greece would say paper PP office and you just sat back had any beer and didn't do any thing ,
I think we going to see a lot more action going on and many fines issue in year if not months to come , although to give the PP some credit since the new DEKPA rule came in they have been very good at informing people to dump and buy a new one then bring an old of date one to be stamp .
Tho it's could be a plots on their part to bring in more revenue without the hassle of trying to get fines .
Wishing everyone who staying in Greece a good sailing season and fingers cross the tax don't happen .
Hardmy
Member
I quite got the feeling that in the last 2 years the CG kept intensifying their action against illegal chartering or sailing with "friends". I got my papers thorougly checked more often. Last year for instance I witnessed a french SY being arrested in Gythion. From time to time I have a look at press releases of the Greek Coastguard, this year between 26.04. and 02.05. they announced having already caught 3 boats.
JFowler
Active member
We’ve been in the Cyclades for the past 2 weeks and haven’t seen a single Patrol Boat.
Tony Cross
Well-known member
This isn't the first time I've come across this. It's not that they think she's a part-owner, it's well known that the presence of an EU citizen as crew on a non-EU flagged boat is sufficient (in Greece at least) to render it ineligible for TI relief, hence the 1 month TL. The only way round that is for the EU citizen to be a passenger and not crew, but the danger there is that you then become a commercial vessel and a whole other can or worms is opened.
Irish Rover
Well-known member
We haven't met any problem getting 18 month TI's eventhough we're all EU citizens on board when we visit Greece but we do carry reasonable evidence of our residency in Turkey.
Chris_Robb
Well-known member
It seems as well that the fact that the boat is owned by an Australian company makes them even more suspicious.
Tony Cross
Well-known member
Then you've been fortunate I would think, I've come across others who have had the same TI problem mentioned above. I would suggest you either consult a lawyer skilled in VAT or trawl the EU legislation yourself, or cross your fingers and hope.
What it comes down to is that an EU citizen cannot use a means of transport unless it's VAT paid. It thus depends on the definition of the word use.
Those who have had problems have found that an EU crew member is deemed to be using the boat even though it's non-EU flagged, and that makes it ineligible for TI. As I mentioned, if they are only a passenger and not crew then their use of the boat changes such that it doesn't affect TI.
Irish Rover
Well-known member
There is a clear exception to this where the the vessel "has been temporarily imported by the registration holder, who is a non EU resident, for their own use" even if the registered owner is an EU citizen. My experience in Preveza and Pythagorio [twice] in the last year or so has been this exception is recognised and well understood by the Greek customs authorities but they do look for reasonable evidence you are ordinarily resident outside the EU.Then you've been fortunate I would think, I've come across others who have had the same TI problem mentioned above. I would suggest you either consult a lawyer skilled in VAT or trawl the EU legislation yourself, or cross your fingers and hope.
What it comes down to is that an EU citizen cannot use a means of transport unless it's VAT paid. It thus depends on the definition of the word use.
Those who have had problems have found that an EU crew member is deemed to be using the boat even though it's non-EU flagged, and that makes it ineligible for TI. As I mentioned, if they are only a passenger and not crew then their use of the boat changes such that it doesn't affect TI.
macd
Active member
That's right, Irish Rover, except that rather being an exception, residence goes to the heart of eligibility for TI.
The overall rule for all forms of TI is that "The holder of the procedure is established outside the customs territory of the Union". I.e. they're resident elsewhere. Further, "In some cases the completion of customs formalities is not required (e.g. temporary admission of means of transport)". MoT specifically includes boats.
From: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/specific-use_en
I don't suppose any of us would be surprised by Greek officials being creative, but the rules are not theirs: "A boat is temporarily admitted into the EU and not into one of the constituent Member States." An individual EU country can, however, require a customs declaration before granting TI, and is able to require guarantees against any VAT which may become due should the vessel overstay. Anecdotally, this seems vanishingly rare.
From: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/rules_for_private_boats-faq_en.pdf
The overall rule for all forms of TI is that "The holder of the procedure is established outside the customs territory of the Union". I.e. they're resident elsewhere. Further, "In some cases the completion of customs formalities is not required (e.g. temporary admission of means of transport)". MoT specifically includes boats.
From: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/specific-use_en
I don't suppose any of us would be surprised by Greek officials being creative, but the rules are not theirs: "A boat is temporarily admitted into the EU and not into one of the constituent Member States." An individual EU country can, however, require a customs declaration before granting TI, and is able to require guarantees against any VAT which may become due should the vessel overstay. Anecdotally, this seems vanishingly rare.
From: https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/rules_for_private_boats-faq_en.pdf
Tony Cross
Well-known member
Which is why I directed the poster to a specialist VAT lawyer. I'm simply relaying information from others (CA members) who have run into this issue before.