Grand designs (non boaty)

[Tiger Rag]

Did anybody watch "grand designs" on channel 4 last night? If so, I need help settling an argument between myself and the trouble and strife. For those who didn't see the programme it told the story of a wealthy businessman who's dream was to design and build his own hi-tech ideal house,(the design was stunning in my opinion) he was to act as project manager, client, main contractor and owner all rolled into one. Countless firms and experts told him it simply could not be done in the time or for the money he envisaged, he disagreed and battled on regardless with the final result being...............it couldn't be done and was at the end of the programme one year over schedule and massively over budget.

My immediate reaction was "what a fool, he should have listened to the people with the experience and employed someone professional to have a hope of getting it done" SWMBO got quite fiery and said she admired "his bulldog spirit and determination to give it a go, and where would the world be without people who were prepared to push on in the face of adversity etc. etc. So who's right?

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[c_j]

Having built two Grand designs myself and having spoken to several potential grand designers during the course of my work, you must start these schemes appreciating that they will run well over budget and well over time. The budget thing is really because you always want to increase quality at the time of purchase so inevitably the price goes up. Time is because you must depend on third parties and the building trade is notorious. Funny that because they will do TV programs about plumbers who sit in your celler banging pipes with a hammer and then charge you for the time, but no one seems to have a go at the Computer consutlant who stares at blank screen for hours and then decides to send a bill for god knows what, or the Solicitor who is charging you for time whilst they discuss last nights meal with the office!

Back to the point, if you are going to build a grand design then double the budget, double the time and remeber that when the roof goes on you are barely half way there.

But do we need such people

Yes

Where would we be without?


Wales


<hr width=100% size=1>CJ
chris@stone.uk.com


<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.stone.uk.com>http://www.stone.uk.com</A>

 

[david_e]

Well, common sense would indicate that you are right, he would be finished now and not so far over budget. But we know what they say about common sense "it aint very common". We thought he was a nice guy and admired him for his determination and courage and really hope it works out well for him and his health prevails.

We love this series and think Kevin McCloud is excellent!

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[david_e]

Re: secret revelations

Like it Chris, but why waste time on solicitors and similar professionals. Start with boatyards and brokers)

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[Tiger Rag]

Re: secret revelations

I agree fire away at the boatyards, but as far as brokers are concerned with our walled mansions and astonishingly expensive security systems you'd never get close enough. The best you could hope for is to listen to the clatter of helicopters arriving for yet another all night party and then maybe catch a glimpse of the stream of supermodels leaving in the morning with far away grins on their faces.

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[tcm]

Unfortunately I didn't like the house he was building at all.

But anyway, I felt that he was quite unfamilar with the whole idea of engineering, building, not recognising the value of decent drawings, not being familiar with how to use/interpret the drawings, and so on. He also seemed unable to recognise the value of a compromise, so simply had accepted the first idea from the architect, regardless of how raving mad. Neither the roof nor any other part of the house was amazing enough to justify all the pratting about.

So, mrs RB is quite correct that we need bulldog sprit and so on. But the ninny last night was displaying bulldog spirit for what eventually what would be not-very-brilliant house worth loads less than it cost, wouldn't work very well as a building, nor would it ever be a classic design, nor a landmark, nor a staging post at the limit the human endeavour. It was a badly designed house, being put together badly. I hope he gets his house built. He could have made sure that he was helped by the architects, but instead he sort-of took himself for a ride by their mad first idea. For our ofice building the first guysuggested a grass roof. Um, yeah right. Was a he an idiot for suggesting it? Not really. Would I have been an idiot saying ooh yes what a great idea . Yes, I think so.

In the right place, that bulldog spirit does eventually pull through. In the wrong place though, some people go to sea in a boat thinking that they can battle through and make up for bad planning, overambitious schedules, lack of expertise/training, with "great bulldog spirit." Good job he was safely out of the way on a building site, I suppose.



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[david_e]

Re: Dealings in Spain

Thought that the parties, choppers and models were from the property developers and all the dodgy land deals, now realise that boat title in Spain probably refers to name on stern and not ownership)

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[jfm]

I admired the guy's enthusiasm but was struck by his behaviour towards his wife - everything was "me" or "I" and he seemed to sell family home without telling her. I hope I'm massively wrong but got the impression he was a total git.

But back to the house. I'm about to start a similar sized project but in a conservation area so traditional build rather than steel and glass. I probly could get a portacabin and manage it myself, but dont see the point. It's all about comparative advantage. The time cost of hiring a full time site manager to manage it is about £40-50k on that kind of house, so why would anyone give up their day job for 1.5 years to save that money, and do it less well in the process? The guy on last nite's show should have hired a pro imho and spent his own time doing whatever it is that allowed him to pull together £1m or so for this project.

Engineeringwise he was hopeless and so were those helping him. That roof was a cock up. The firm making it in Newcastle seemed to have no proper alignment and measuring kit, so no wonder it didn't fit. To find the 3 day weather window to fit the roof the builder was using some mickey-mouse website. Next day it rained, doh. It wasn't covered much in the show but I spect many people he dealt with got pissed off by his wanting more and more discount on everything. He dealt with 23 firms before placing the roof contract. 22 of them wasted time quoting, and the cheapest firm got the contract. But the job was massively late and cocked up, so they weren't the cheapest. Imho you need to have better judgement about price/quality and not waste people's time (including your own) pennypinching.

Also I find that presenter painfully irritating......

Good show though.

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[Mangusta]

How boring.

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[jhr]

I admired his perennial optimism and drive but thought he was a bit of a plonker, to be honest - for reasons already rehearsed by others; two not incompatible points of view. It's interesting that a previous programme showed another couple with virtually zero knowledge and experience but who worked very much as a team and who, to Kevin McLeod's visible disbelief, managed to turn an old water pumping station into an amazing home on time and to budget.

It's a fascinating series; and 'cos it's on Channel 4 I can watch it whilst deluding myself that I'm not the kind of sad git who watches Changing Rooms or Ground Force ;-)

In the spirit of (mild) Fred Drift, Kevin McLeod also presented an interesting series a couple of years ago where he climbed very high structures and buildings (he is terrified of heights). I thought that was also vg and take my hat off to him, since I'm dodgy when I get more than a few feet off the ground as well. OK; I'm dodgy all the time, but particularly under those circs.........

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[tr7v8]

Umm, but weren't the couple who did the water tower, an Architect and she was a civil engineer. Some of the techniques on this series have been very interesting, things like the polystyrene foam "bricks" and the concrete beam roofing system.
Kevin also drives a TVR Speed 6 or 12 so can't be bad......

<hr width=100% size=1>Jim

Draco 2500

 

[Steve_Bentley]

I found the idea of using ex oil-rig pipes as piles intriguing.

When you look at the house they were leaving I can sympathise with the chap wanting to save money! The only real cost of a 6-month over-run was the rent on a caravan (if I heard correctly) and loss of earnings, against which he knows the house doesn't have the usual bodges that builders employ to hit deadlines.

Didn't much like the design though so it wasn't really worth all the effort!

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[jhr]

I know the programe you mean, but that was in a previous series - I'm talking about the first prog. in the current series, which was an ex-pumping station (I think) and not a tower. Tho' I seem to recall that the tower project, even when revisted last year, still wasn't finished!

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[tr7v8]

Yes, not been able to watch the current series and didn't realise their were 2 water works buildings until I looked at the website.
Seem to remember that the first one the couple had 2 or 3 young children and decided they needed a break!



<hr width=100% size=1>Jim

Draco 2500

 

[DIW]

Too big a project and far too complicated for a 'first attempt'. Reckon final costs including land purchase close to or even over £1Mil maybe. 'bite off ' and 'more than you can chew' come to mind.But admire his determination and arrogance !!
Anybody know what his 'proper' job is,was ?


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[hlb]

Never swa it. But converted my barn. ( There was still cow shit on the floor when we started.) Gutted converted and finished, including the duck pond in six months. Mind, there were 22 people working on it the day we moved in. Only cos the plumber was late. (arnt they always) He was playing hell cos the carpets were going down on top of him!! Anyway it was all fiished by tea time. All the curtains hung and under budgit. Every one said it cant be done in six months. The more they said it, it was like a red rag to a bull. Would not like to do it again......... What am I saying. Just done another ten since! not to live in though.

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Haydn

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Water Tower Building

The water tower building from the first series is near us in Amersham and I pass by most days. How the local council allowed a steel and concrete office block type building to be tacked on to brick water tower is beyond me. I think they got bamboozled by the fact that the owners were arty/trendy/ new edge architect types and the planners didnt want to look like ignorant philistines for turning them down. Basically, 4 years on, the place still looks like a water tower with an office block on the side and an earth mound in front. How they'll ever sell the place, I dunno

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[sailbadthesinner]

Prob is most people live in a house , and think they know what they want. They donot always realise in what is involved in acheiving their goal.

prob i have is that once i have finished i want to move on. They key is carpets
The minute i buy the carpets i think house looks lovely, better sell before those carpets get all grotty and find another one to do up.

Went to see a barn converison last saturday. it was a total lesson in how not to do it. it had supposedlybeen doen by proerty developers. they had no idea, it was pitieable.

<hr width=100% size=1><font color=red>I can't walk on water, but I do run on Guinness</font color=red>

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Having also completed our own grand design 2 years ago and learnt some extremely painful lessons, I dont think it's possible to manage a complex build yourself unless you are already in the building business. Basically, in the building trade uncertainty = costs. Apart from loadsamoney you need a sympathetic and commited architect who should prepare a as detailed as possible design with a proper contract, specification and bill of quantities and, typically, this costs 15% of the project cost. Then you also need an experienced and competent builder and he is unlikely to be the cheapest. You, as the owner, also need to realise that making changes to the specification during the build will cost you money. It also helps greatly if you keep the local planners onside during the build
Our own build cost roughly double what we originally budgeted in terms of time and money, we went through 3 architects (and sued one of them) and 2 builders. Knowing what I know now, I would still do it again, though

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[jhr]

Re: Water Tower Building

I agree; not a sympathetic adaptation.

In terms of finding a buyer, I suspect they will find a couple of mug punters who either are, or want to be seen as arty/trendy/ new edge architect types and palm it off on them. Alternatively, they could label it as an updating of a classic design theme built in traditional materials, and sell it to a "classic boat" type (dons tin helmet).

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