Go Big or Go Home?

[MapisM]

882 kw = 1182 Hp rounded up to 1200 as is the convention.

Porto, you aren't a great supporter of your own arguments, because all HP power ratings in MAN engines are expressed in metric rather than mechanical horsepower.
So, an 882kW engine is what MAN would definitely call a 1200hp engine, not because it's a rounding of 1182 (which they would NEVER call 1200hp), but because it's actually a rounding of 1199 metric hp.

Regardless, all right, you eventually found a 1200hp V12 MAN engine, though I did specify that I wasn't stretching my considerations further back that the last two decades.
Anyway, as the plate shows, it's an LE406, not an LE404 as your FB chap seemed to be talking about, according to your previous post - different animals altogether, both pretty rare, and the first as much as hen's teeth.
I can only guess that it must have been a spiced up version of the old and very popular 1100hp, still mechanical and built to compete with the MTU V12, which by mid 90s was uprated to 1150hp.
Not much to see with the 1300hp EDC, that came several years later.
Now, if these particular LE406 ever had any valve problems, I have no clue, for the very simple reason that I never came across them (and consequently never asked to any mechanic) in ANY late 90s boat.
They were all powered by either MTUs or Cats (183 TE92/93 or 3412 respectively).

All that aside, you'll forgive me if I wouldn't trust the V10/1050 just because someone on FB called it a good engine in comparison to an oddball version of the V12 built almost a decade earlier.
But feel free to call that "barking up the wrong tree" if you like, I honestly couldn't care less.

 

[Hooligan]

1475 hours on the engines. But the colour scheme on the refit is ...'different'...

2002 Fairline Squadron 58 Power New and Used Boats for Sale -

Yes, interesting choice of tops but that is easy to fix. In my view the hours are not a problem. In a boat that is 18 years old that is well under 100 hours a year. It would IMHO be far worse to see it have say 500 hours on the engines. Key I think, from experience, would be to see what they have changed or refurbished. I would have thought the starter motors, raw water pumps, the gen probably refurbed and air con pumps etc. But if it has had the proper services done and the things that need doing after these hours then perhaps you get a bargain because the first thing people look at is the hours.

 

[Portofino]

Porto, you aren't a great supporter of your own arguments, because all HP power ratings in MAN engines are expressed in metric rather than mechanical horsepower.
So, an 882kW engine is what MAN would definitely call a 1200hp engine, not because it's a rounding of 1182 (which they would NEVER call 1200hp), but because it's actually a rounding of 1199 metric hp.

Regardless, all right, you eventually found a 1200hp V12 MAN engine, though I did specify that I wasn't stretching my considerations further back that the last two decades.
Anyway, as the plate shows, it's an LE406, not an LE404 as your FB chap seemed to be talking about, according to your previous post - different animals altogether, both pretty rare, and the first as much as hen's teeth.
I can only guess that it must have been a spiced up version of the old and very popular 1100hp, still mechanical and built to compete with the MTU V12, which by mid 90s was uprated to 1150hp.
Not much to see with the 1300hp EDC, that came several years later.
Now, if these particular LE406 ever had any valve problems, I have no clue, for the very simple reason that I never came across them (and consequently never asked to any mechanic) in ANY late 90s boat.
They were all powered by either MTUs or Cats (183 TE92/93 or 3412 respectively).

All that aside, you'll forgive me if I wouldn't trust the V10/1050 just because someone on FB called it a good engine in comparison to an oddball version of the V12 built almost a decade earlier.
But feel free to call that "barking up the wrong tree" if you like, I honestly couldn't care less.

Hang on you the one who was denying the existence of the 1200;v 12 .
I did not eventually find it always new mate just correcting you .
My tech mate never give the code numbers, just the Hp + configuration numbers his quote just mentions what I posted .

I found the coding fwiw and although in the e bay link it may be different to the other v12 1200 in the Vikings its irrelevant and a post of yours gets in the code muddle .

The salient point I pushed back at your summary dismissal of the V12 1200 ever existing.

I later told you , excused you to look further back showing links to boats with them in circa 98 etc .
You then you said I got my facts wrong .
Youthen complicated it all with your babbling on about the injector tech which mirrors AN Other engine history .

I think it’s important to identify exactly the whole history, whys and when s of the “ Mangrenade “ and how it was delt with .

Every day school day hope my posts cleared up which one had the bad rep and why .

Correctly maintained ( applies to all large old motors ) they inc the V 10 mans are perfectly buyable .
They needs regular inspections and checking of the damper bolts and rubber .They ( MANS ) all do btw .

I recall Bart on here had one let go , come loose on his elderly V12 s of the 90 s era .

Your inference they dropped it because it had issues is fake .
As I said the V 8 s Hp came up to overlap , and thus making it redundant as the current V 12 range spans 1400 to 2000 Hp .

V 10 configuration has been used in automotive with BMW , Lamborghini and Audi not the same block btw .
VAG group another German co even do counterintuitive 3 cylinder and 5 cylinder and the BMW do a 1.5 3 cylinder too .
Harmonic vibration all engineered away .

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Yes, interesting choice of tops but that is easy to fix. In my view the hours are not a problem. In a boat that is 18 years old that is well under 100 hours a year. It would IMHO be far worse to see it have say 500 hours on the engines. Key I think, from experience, would be to see what they have changed or refurbished. I would have thought the starter motors, raw water pumps, the gen probably refurbed and air con pumps etc. But if it has had the proper services done and the things that need doing after these hours then perhaps you get a bargain because the first thing people look at is the hours.

That's a lot of boat for the money. I'm not a fan of the interior at all but as said that's (relatively) easy to change. Blue hull probably a wrap.

 

[GravyStain]

Yes, interesting choice of tops but that is easy to fix. In my view the hours are not a problem. In a boat that is 18 years old that is well under 100 hours a year. It would IMHO be far worse to see it have say 500 hours on the engines. Key I think, from experience, would be to see what they have changed or refurbished. I would have thought the starter motors, raw water pumps, the gen probably refurbed and air con pumps etc. But if it has had the proper services done and the things that need doing after these hours then perhaps you get a bargain because the first thing people look at is the hours.

It does look like very good value. £80k cheaper than the next priced one....

 

[GravyStain]

That's a lot of boat for the money. I'm not a fan of the interior at all but as said that's (relatuvely) easy to change. Blue hull probably a wrap.

Yes, a wrap I would agree.
Define 'relatively' easy to change
That interior runs through the whole boat and it wouldn't make me feel 'at home' particularly, but having said that, it looks like very good value.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Yes, a wrap I would agree.
Define 'relatively' easy to change
That interior runs through the whole boat and it wouldn't make me feel 'at home' particularly, but having said that, it looks like very good value.

A lot, Maybe 50k for a pro to redo it plus the saloon and cabin upholstery and linings that are also shot? or maybe 10k DIY if you have the time and skills like @Hurricane ...
Been reduced already so no takers. If you hate it then so will the person who wants to buy it off you. Offer them 200k and see if you get a bite.

The wrap might hide a multitude of sins. Once damaged it's almost impossible to repair, could be 10k or so to replace. Or AWLGrip at 20k.

 

[jrudge]

Mapism is the expert. From memory it has a strange interior layout hampered by 2

A lot, Maybe 50k for a pro to redo it plus the saloon and cabin upholstery and linings that are also shot? or maybe 10k DIY if you have the time and skills like @Hurricane ...
Been reduced already so no takers. If you hate it then so will the person who wants to buy it off you. Offer them 200k and see if you get a bite.

The wrap might hide a multitude of sins. Once damaged it's almost impossible to repair, could be 10k or so to replace. Or AWLGrip at 20k.

its the interior wrap that devalues the thing and it is everywhere. Either it was all shot ( unlikely ) or he thought it looked cool ( he was mistaken ).

it maybe the lowest priced out there ( I have not looked ) but not especially cheap given hours in my view

 

[Bouba]

A lot, Maybe 50k for a pro to redo it plus the saloon and cabin upholstery and linings that are also shot? or maybe 10k DIY if you have the time and skills like @Hurricane ...
Been reduced already so no takers. If you hate it then so will the person who wants to buy it off you. Offer them 200k and see if you get a bite.

The wrap might hide a multitude of sins. Once damaged it's almost impossible to repair, could be 10k or so to replace. Or AWLGrip at 20k.

It doesn’t look so bad to my eyes. The functionality hasn’t changed, Gravy asked for the most boat for the buck. I would certainly ask for several hi def photos of the entire hull etc since it’s not possible to visit. Rumor is that the French lockdown is being extended to December 20, i don’t know about Spain

 

[julians]

It doesn’t look so bad to my eyes. The functionality hasn’t changed, Gravy asked for the most boat for the buck. I would certainly ask for several hi def photos of the entire hull etc since it’s not possible to visit. Rumor is that the French lockdown is being extended to December 20, i don’t know about Spain

Looks OK to me too.

 

[Hooligan]

It doesn’t look so bad to my eyes. The functionality hasn’t changed, Gravy asked for the most boat for the buck. I would certainly ask for several hi def photos of the entire hull etc since it’s not possible to visit. Rumor is that the French lockdown is being extended to December 20, i don’t know about Spain

Have to say the white looks awful, the seller must have had an interesting sense of fashion. On my S58 i dumbed down the cherry by making all the flat surfaces black and it came out stunning. Not excessively expensive. The problem here is that there is white everywhere. If it is a wrap then perhaps easy to remove. I didn’t wrap I had the surfaces revarnished black. On hours there is a huge debate. I am no technician but a question. Would you rather buy same boat for say 300k with 750 hours on it or for 220k with 1475 hours? At 750 hours i reckon you have all the problems ahead of you because nothing has probably gone badly wrong. At 1475 for sure he/she has had to change or recon a few things none of which likely to cost the difference in asking price. Unless engine buggered of course. So the key is to ensure what has been done or not done. Even if you have to get a new generator for example that is probably 14k ish? So again it is all about value for money. Plus i reckon when you buy a boat you need to write off the initial purchase price. It’s a bit like owning a Ferrari. some people keep them in the garage, after 5 years they have done 3000 miles. Great for resale perhaps but surely you buy a car to use it. Same with a boat. If you are too scared to use it because engine hours go up then i cant see point in buying one. Cheaper to buy a boat magazine and look at pictures

 

[Sticky Fingers]

It doesn’t look so bad to my eyes. ...

Looks OK to me too.

Have to disagree about the interior but the blue hull wrap looks alright IMHO.

Some higher resolution versions of the pix here:
Fairline Squadron 58 - Marina Marbella

 

[Bouba]

Have to say the white looks awful, the seller must have had an interesting sense of fashion. On my S58 i dumbed down the cherry by making all the flat surfaces black and it came out stunning. Not excessively expensive. The problem here is that there is white everywhere. If it is a wrap then perhaps easy to remove. I didn’t wrap I had the surfaces revarnished black. On hours there is a huge debate. I am no technician but a question. Would you rather buy same boat for say 300k with 750 hours on it or for 220k with 1475 hours? At 750 hours i reckon you have all the problems ahead of you because nothing has probably gone badly wrong. At 1475 for sure he/she has had to change or recon a few things none of which likely to cost the difference in asking price. Unless engine buggered of course. So the key is to ensure what has been done or not done. Even if you have to get a new generator for example that is probably 14k ish? So again it is all about value for money. Plus i reckon when you buy a boat you need to write off the initial purchase price. It’s a bit like owning a Ferrari. some people keep them in the garage, after 5 years they have done 3000 miles. Great for resale perhaps but surely you buy a car to use it. Same with a boat. If you are too scared to use it because engine hours go up then i cant see point in buying one. Cheaper to buy a boat magazine and look at pictures

The engine hour dilemma is surely that. I believe in using the engine and I believe in the concept that you should be wary of low hour engines. But I also know that reselling a high hour engine is extremely difficult

 

[julians]

Meh, most 'big' boat interiors look like dodgy 90s small/medium sized town nightclubs to me, this one's no different.

 

[Sticky Fingers]

The engine hour dilemma is surely that. I believe in using the engine and I believe in the concept that you should be wary of low hour engines. But I also know that reselling a high hour engine is extremely difficult

That's right, it's a bit like cars with >100k miles, probably absolutely fine and priced right they sell I guess. It pays to think about the resale.

 

[Hurricane]

or maybe 10k DIY if you have the time and skills like @Hurricane ...

For me, it isn't particularly "skills" but the time involved.
And a "bloody minded" attitude of getting value for money.
I'm retired so time isn't a constraint.
This means that if I can do the job, all I have to do is work out how to do it myself.
Current projects for me are teak deck replacement with synthetic, and boat covers (sewing).
Also, the head linings on our Princess have started to go.
I've bought some of the original fabric from America via an agent in the UK so thats another job to do sometime.

I think that the headlining replacement will be easier than other projects that I've undertaken but most stuff CAN be done DIY.
Even then, there are a few things where I have had the professionals in.
I do all the engine servicing myself (I went on a course at the MTU factory) but when it came to replacing a seal on the front of the port engine, I had some help.
Our local Volvo engineers to moved the engine and MTU did the actual seal replacement.
I could never have done this on my own:-

The local Volvo engineers are also specialists at shafts etc so I use them for any of the heavier engineering work that I can't handle myself.
Currently there is some servicing work needed on the port exhaust and a shaft seal that I want to replace - they will be doing that work.

Other than that, boaty DIY projects keep me motivated and have given me lots to do during the lock downs.
I'm currently making new cockpit covers on the dining room table.
A couple of seasons ago, I bought a Sailrite sewing machine (fantastic bit of kit) and made some cockpit covers using a very cheap fabric.
The cheap fabric was a mistake (deteriorated in the Med sun) so I am now remaking them using the same fabric that Princess originally used.
I will revisit the sewing thread on this forum sometime and update it.
Sewing can be very therapeutic as long as you have the time and some space to lay it out.

So, to recap, most stuff on the boat can be done DIY

 

[Bouba]

For me, it isn't particularly "skills" but the time involved.
And a "bloody minded" attitude of getting value for money.
I'm retired so time isn't a constraint.
This means that if I can do the job, all I have to do is work out how to do it myself.
Current projects for me are teak deck replacement with synthetic, and boat covers (sewing).
Also, the head linings on our Princess have started to go.
I've bought some of the original fabric from America via an agent in the UK so thats another job to do sometime.

I think that the headlining replacement will be easier than other projects that I've undertaken but most stuff CAN be done DIY.
Even then, there are a few things where I have had the professionals in.
I do all the engine servicing myself (I went on a course at the MTU factory) but when it came to replacing a seal on the front of the port engine, I had some help.
Our local Volvo engineers to moved the engine and MTU did the actual seal replacement.
I could never have done this on my own:-

The local Volvo engineers are also specialists at shafts etc so I use them for any of the heavier engineering work that I can't handle myself.
Currently there is some servicing work needed on the port exhaust and a shaft seal that I want to replace - they will be doing that work.

Other than that, boaty DIY projects keep me motivated and have given me lots to do during the lock downs.
I'm currently making new cockpit covers on the dining room table.
A couple of seasons ago, I bought a Sailrite sewing machine (fantastic bit of kit) and made some cockpit covers using a very cheap fabric.
The cheap fabric was a mistake (deteriorated in the Med sun) so I am now remaking them using the same fabric that Princess originally used.
I will revisit the sewing thread on this forum sometime and update it.
Sewing can be very therapeutic as long as you have the time and some space to lay it out.

So, to recap, most stuff on the boat can be done DIY

I would be very interested in the sewing thread. Especially how you sew material that is only a meter wide into bigger pieces that are still waterproof. Not only are professional boat upholsterers expensive they are nearly impossible to get hold of

 

[GravyStain]

For me, it isn't particularly "skills" but the time involved.
And a "bloody minded" attitude of getting value for money.
I'm retired so time isn't a constraint.
This means that if I can do the job, all I have to do is work out how to do it myself.
Current projects for me are teak deck replacement with synthetic, and boat covers (sewing).
Also, the head linings on our Princess have started to go.
I've bought some of the original fabric from America via an agent in the UK so thats another job to do sometime.

I think that the headlining replacement will be easier than other projects that I've undertaken but most stuff CAN be done DIY.
Even then, there are a few things where I have had the professionals in.
I do all the engine servicing myself (I went on a course at the MTU factory) but when it came to replacing a seal on the front of the port engine, I had some help.
Our local Volvo engineers to moved the engine and MTU did the actual seal replacement.
I could never have done this on my own:-

The local Volvo engineers are also specialists at shafts etc so I use them for any of the heavier engineering work that I can't handle myself.
Currently there is some servicing work needed on the port exhaust and a shaft seal that I want to replace - they will be doing that work.

Other than that, boaty DIY projects keep me motivated and have given me lots to do during the lock downs.
I'm currently making new cockpit covers on the dining room table.
A couple of seasons ago, I bought a Sailrite sewing machine (fantastic bit of kit) and made some cockpit covers using a very cheap fabric.
The cheap fabric was a mistake (deteriorated in the Med sun) so I am now remaking them using the same fabric that Princess originally used.
I will revisit the sewing thread on this forum sometime and update it.
Sewing can be very therapeutic as long as you have the time and some space to lay it out.

So, to recap, most stuff on the boat can be done DIY

I'm very much in your camp... I make my own furniture for fun (I have a decent sized workshop, make guitars for fun, built a GT40 kit (mostly), tinker with engines etc. I'm not retired, but I only work 3 hours a day on my business. Money is great, but you can't buy time.....

 

[Hurricane]

I would be very interested in the sewing thread. Especially how you sew material that is only a meter wide into bigger pieces that are still waterproof. Not only are professional boat upholsterers expensive they are nearly impossible to get hold of

Easy
Pretty much a standard French seam.
There isn't an easy answer to your question.
The seams that I make are like French seams.
I start by placing the two top surfaces together (face to face).
I use basting tape (a double sided tape - sometimes called Venture tape) to "stick" the seam together.
Then I run the sewing machine down the seam - just inside the double sided sticky tape.
Then more basting tape and turn the panels the correct way up - pulling very hard against the sewn seam - sticking the little flap underneath as I go.
Pulling hard against the sewn seam makes foe a better seam.
Then the bit I think you are concerned about.
A top stitch to hold the fold in place - on a large panel, you might have to roll the fabric to get it to pass through the machine.
The basting tape is great for holding the fabric whilst you sew but it also forms a waterproof seal where the needle passes through.
A lot of it is all about planning to avoid having to push wide sections through the machine.
For example, the job I'm doing at the moment has lots of zips - zips can be completely split and finally assembled at the end - this can reduce the amount of fabric that passes through the right side of the machine.
In fact, I have developed my own technique with zips where I sew down one way and up the other thus keeping the fabric on the left and not having to pass through the right side.

A lot of people use domestic sewing machines.
I've used domestic machines in the past but these Sailrite machines are unbelievably good at canvass - every stitch is the same size which is difficult to achieve with a domestic machine.
This is my Sailrite machine with some of that cheap canvass.

They make 2 machines - the LSZ-1 (the blue one) is the best and worth the extra.
This is their promotion video:-

Here are some of the jobs that I've done.

Console covers using the cheap canvass.


Same thing but I've now made them with the longer lasting material that Princess use. (sorry a bit of bird poo on the top)


These are cockpit covers that I made with the cheap canvass.


And here is an example of the quality of the stitching that the Sailrite can achieve.
This pic also shows the end result of my zip technique.
Using the Princess fabric.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

That's a lot of boat for the money. I'm not a fan of the interior at all but as said that's (relatively) easy to change. Blue hull probably a wrap.

Alarming colour choices but to be expected for a boat on the Costa del Sol It wouldnt put me off either but I would definitely want to know what the refit included. I suspect it might only be the cosmetic stuff rather than the mechanical stuff in which of course the refit becomes a negative rather than a positive. Engine hours are fine for a boat of that age