Girl, 15, dies in Southampton boat crash

[Deleted member 36384]

Indeed.
But in my view it's only been a matter of time until something like this happened.

I think it would be a good thing if the whole 'high speed RIB ride' industry ceased to exist.
Hopefully this tragic event is the beginning of the end of it.

I think your wrong. This is an industry that provides income and tax payments and is safe and controlled if the lack of incidents is anything go by.

 

[Easticks28]

Personally, I see nothing wrong with courses that claim 100% pass rates. In fact that would be the sign of a good course. The purpose of any course is to educate and train its attendees in whatever subject is intended. The exam at the end of the course is to determine whether the course has achieved its objective for each individual involved. A worthwhile course should persist in that training until that goal is achieved. If, on the other hand there was only an exam and no training course there may well be failures, but I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about here.
Mike

Unless it's changed since I did it, there is no exam at the end. The Inland Waterways Helmsman's cert. is another issue - that does have one.

 

[RichardS]

Terrible accident indeed.

Just an observation. Human error is not ”so easily avoided”. It is very hard to change human behavior such that they act in a predictable, controlled way. It’s a common theme in investigations where humans are found to be part of the root cause. Mechanical failings are the easy ones to prevent.

Indeed. I meant "easily avoided by the individual concerned".

Richard

 

[dom]

Unless it's changed since I did it, there is no exam at the end. The Inland Waterways Helmsman's cert. is another issue - that does have one.

Specifically re pb2, I must say I was disappointed in this course having required the kids to pass it before allowing them to undertake even short journeys unaccompanied in a mid-sized rib. I think the minimum age is 12 for Powerboat Level 2, or at least it was. The hope was for something a bit more full-on safety focused and which emphasised that the ubiquitous 300hp craft - while not powerful in rib terms - can be highly dangerous, are not toys, etc.

As for the qualification's suitability for driving commercial rib trips; in light of the tragic circumstances and consequent legal due process we must collectively allow the MCA, police, and judiciary to all do their jobs before speculating on the specific circumstances. Otherwise this thread will have to be pulled and rightly so.

 

[38mess]

Indeed.
But in my view it's only been a matter of time until something like this happened.

I think it would be a good thing if the whole 'high speed RIB ride' industry ceased to exist.
Hopefully this tragic event is the beginning of the end of it.

I disagree. Very few accidents in this industry considering the amount of trips carried out. All of the guys I know in the industry are highly skilled and capable, most are in their 40s and 50s and work in the maritime sector as skippers.

 

[Resolution]

I disagree. Very few accidents in this industry considering the amount of trips carried out. All of the guys I know in the industry are highly skilled and capable, most are in their 40s and 50s and work in the maritime industry.

And it is an awful lot of fun for a lot of people!!????

 

[JumbleDuck]

As for the qualification's suitability for driving commercial rib trips; in light of the tragic circumstances and consequent legal due process we must collectively allow the MCA, police, and judiciary to all do their jobs before speculating on the specific circumstances. Otherwise this thread will have to be pulled and rightly so.

Because ... ?

 

[Elessar]

Indeed.
But in my view it's only been a matter of time until something like this happened.

I think it would be a good thing if the whole 'high speed RIB ride' industry ceased to exist.
Hopefully this tragic event is the beginning of the end of it.

Far more people die sailing. Best ban it.

 

[RichardS]

Far more people die sailing. Best ban it.

Spot on, Elessar.

Some of us spend our lives wishing for more Nanny State whereas others spend our lives pushing back against it.

Richard

 

[longjohnsilver]

Specifically re pb2, I must say I was disappointed in this course having required the kids to pass it before allowing them to undertake even short journeys unaccompanied in a mid-sized rib. I think the minimum age is 12 for Powerboat Level 2, or at least it was. The hope was for something a bit more full-on safety focused and which emphasised that the ubiquitous 300hp craft - while not powerful in rib terms - can be highly dangerous, are not toys, etc.

As for the qualification's suitability for driving commercial rib trips; in light of the tragic circumstances and consequent legal due process we must collectively allow the MCA, police, and judiciary to all do their jobs before speculating on the specific circumstances. Otherwise this thread will have to be pulled and rightly so.

I agree with just about everything you say, but I suspect most folks, myself included, would say that a 300hp engined rib is a pretty powerful beast. I certainly don’t see many more powerful. And I can’t see the thread being pulled, I don’t like people making assumptions as to why this accident happened, but that’s just my opinion. Many others obviously think differently.

 

[dom]

Because ... ?

On one level it just seems plain wrong - at least to me it does - for people to use this tragedy as a vehicle to project a personal dislike of the RYA, ribs, jetskis, or other hobbyhorses. More importantly, there has to be a distinct possibility that this tragic accident becomes sub judice should legal proceedings become active. In which circumstances it would still be acceptable to publish opinions as part of a public interest discussion, but this is tricky in a public forum where even the most innocuous comments could be considered as contempt.

As to the extent of this 'public interest', I guess the principle espoused by US Supreme Court Judge Louis Brandeis "sunlight is said to be the best of disinfectants, electric light the most efficient policeman" is now enshrined in UK law. So we can all follow events as this tragic case unfolds.
In the meantime, Judge Sir John Bayley 1929 (my highlights) holds:

" It is one of the essential qualities of a Court of Justice that its proceedings should be in public, and that all parties who may be desirous of hearing what is going on, if there be room in the place for that purpose, provided they do not interrupt the proceedings and provided there is no specific reason why they should be removed – have the right to be present for the purpose of hearing what is going on.”​

Should a sailor be called as a witness, and if he/she is a member of this forum, or if it turns out a jury member reads posts on here, then any potential case would risk being interrupted or even compromised in these terms. It is a fine line though and there are few hard and fast rules.

 

[Kelpie]

As the person on this thread who first mentioned the PB2 course, can I apologise if that thread drift seems in any way insensitive. And yes it is mere speculation, at this stage nobody knows exactly what happened, and for what reasons. I was merely replying to a comment that the skipper would have been commercially qualified, and felt it necessary to point out that this standard may not be quite as difficult to attain as people might assume.

For background, I have worked in the commercial marine sector for over five years, including skippering passenger boats. It is entirely possible and legal for somebody to do their PB2 (plus the other short courses required for commercial endorsement) and then jump straight aboard a very powerful boat (in my case, a 10m RIB with twin 350hp engines, and coded for 12 passengers, with no requirement for a second crewman).
Most people I have encountered in the industry have had some combination of prior experience, and a sense of self preservation, that keeps them out of trouble. But the minimum legally required qualifications are, IMHO, woefully insufficient to ensure safety.

I'm not calling for mandatory tightening up, but it would be interesting to look at how many accidents are happening and what might be causing them. And I don't see the parallels with calls for licensing of private, low powered, craft, because they do not present the same danger, especially when there are no paying customers involved.

 

[dom]

I agree with just about everything you say, but I suspect most folks, myself included, would say that a 300hp engined rib is a pretty powerful beast. I certainly don’t see many more powerful. And I can’t see the thread being pulled, I don’t like people making assumptions as to why this accident happened, but that’s just my opinion. Many others obviously think differently.

Totally agree, and this engine hp inflation is a concern. When I were a lad Dorys or ribs with 30-50hp engines were considered powerful and 80hp units were quite something. By about 10-15 years ago, 100hp, 115hp, and 150hp had become the new normal on ribs, before increasing to 200-250hp units, which before long started to be used in pairs, and finally, the 300hps, also used as pairs. Most recently we're seeing beasts like the Yamaha XTO 425hp.

The problem is hp becomes a status symbol and kids in particular - mine included - are easily sucked into the hype. As a consequence of which in the Solent today 300hp units are ten to the penny with scant attention paid to the fact that these are - as you correctly say - powerful and potentially dangerous pieces of equipment, capable of speeds far in excess of safe operation in many, even most applications.

 

[matt1]

Just wondering, is there still a speed limit in Southampton Water?

 

[mjcoon]

I disagree. Very few accidents in this industry considering the amount of trips carried out. All of the guys I know in the industry are highly skilled and capable, most are in their 40s and 50s and work in the maritime sector as skippers.

Another aspect which I don't think anyone mentioned is insurance. I presume that some sort of cover must be required to run a commercial joy-riding concern? With the cover readily determinable by potential customers? If a claim arises from this tragic incident it may make such operations more expensive and alter their financial viability...

 

[JumbleDuck]

On one level it just seems plain wrong - at least to me it does - for people to use this tragedy as a vehicle to project a personal dislike of the RYA, ribs, jetskis, or other hobbyhorses. More importantly, there has to be a distinct possibility that this tragic accident becomes sub judice should legal proceedings become active. In which circumstances it would still be acceptable to publish opinions as part of a public interest discussion, but this is tricky in a public forum where even the most innocuous comments could be considered as contempt.

But only after proceedings have started, as you say. Didn't we go through all this with Cheeky Rafiki?

 

[Offshore57]

Just wondering, is there still a speed limit in Southampton Water?

I seem to remember something about 40 knots limit....with permission required for raceboat testing (for example) to exceed that...I could well be wrong though...

 

[doug748]

Totally agree, and this engine hp inflation is a concern. When I were a lad Dorys or ribs with 30-50hp engines were considered powerful and 80hp units were quite something. By about 10-15 years ago, 100hp, 115hp, and 150hp had become the new normal on ribs, before increasing to 200-250hp units, which before long started to be used in pairs, and finally, the 300hps, also used as pairs. Most recently we're seeing beasts like the Yamaha XTO 425hp.

The problem is hp becomes a status symbol and kids in particular - mine included - are easily sucked into the hype. As a consequence of which in the Solent today 300hp units are ten to the penny with scant attention paid to the fact that these are - as you correctly say - powerful and potentially dangerous pieces of equipment, capable of speeds far in excess of safe operation in many, even most applications.

Yes. bit of an eye opener in France as well.

Sunny weather in August and the usual hot spots are rammed with hugely powerful ribs, making la grande entree, looking, going away and coming back to repeat. Bloody tedious at anchor. .?

.

 

[dom]

But only after proceedings have started, as you say. Didn't we go through all this with Cheeky Rafiki?

Can't remember at what point those threads were pulled, but you're right, nothing to prevent a public interest discussion at this point as long as we collectively desist from overstepping the line.

 

[Resolution]

Totally agree, and this engine hp inflation is a concern. When I were a lad Dorys or ribs with 30-50hp engines were considered powerful and 80hp units were quite something. By about 10-15 years ago, 100hp, 115hp, and 150hp had become the new normal on ribs, before increasing to 200-250hp units, which before long started to be used in pairs, and finally, the 300hps, also used as pairs. Most recently we're seeing beasts like the Yamaha XTO 425hp.

Pair of 300hps -pah! Take a look at the youtube series on Haulover Inlet, Florida, where our American cousins think nothing of strapping quad Mercury 400s onto their dayboats. A long long way from our quintessential Seagull!