GGR 22

[jlavery]

I was thinking self steering was a good candidate for something which could rip a big hole in the stern area.

Then I read this. Interesting analysis - still conjecture though, as everything will be!

 

[Blueboatman]

I was thinking self steering was a good candidate for something which could rip a big hole in the stern area.

Then I read this. Interesting analysis - still conjecture though, as everything will be!

That is an interesting analysis.
Thanks.
Despite two additional aft watertight bulkheads (and all through hulls and new rudder being located between them ).. that was one massive refit!
(Massive thread drift: I see my old boat in the corner of one of Peter Foerthmanns photos . Sadly the new owner didn’t secure sponsorship quite in time for a decent fit out for this race but is aiming for GGR 2026. With or without the currently fitted Monitor pendulum gear)

 

[zoidberg]

I am of the belief that a boat and it’s crew should arrive at a destination in possibly even finer well oiled, working fettle than when they set out .. from what little onboard vid I have sent, she seems very at one with boat and sea and self .

"When all is said and done.... there's a lot more said than done."

 

[Yara]

To add to my theory of hull failure due to rigging loads causing fore and aft bending. Transverse bulkheads provide strength in the wrong direction. Then add a row of through-hull penetrations at the stress concentration point. "Tear along dotted line" comes to mind.
On the compression side, multiple access hatches in the deck would have created additional weakness.

 

[Sandy]

So my theory is that the increased tensions on the rigging due to all the above factors, and the age of the boat, led to a fatal crack in the hull, probably at or near the rudder post.

I have been saying since the last McIntyre Circus, you cannot recreate a bygone 'golden age of sailing', that never existed, using old huls and modern sails and string.

 

[savageseadog]

We will never know what happened to Tapio's boat, but please indulge me while I explained my diagnosis.

Here are the background facts:
The boat was manufactured sometime in the late 1960s or early 1970s. It was designed by Sparkman and Stephens similar to the Swan 36. Note the counter stern.
Tapio's boat had heavily upgraded rigging, including a shortened mast and much heavier stays. It also had multiple headstays.
The boat sank rapidly after a bang, with no mention of collision shock.
View attachment 146538
Now for my theory.
One of the first engineering principles I learned as a teenager building model aeroplanes, was that reinforcing a structure can throw extra load onto other parts of the structure. It also taught me about stress concentrations.
Creating stronger rigging and a stronger mast allows for much greater tension forces in the rigging. These tension forces create a bending moment on the hull, with upward loads at the bow and stern. Now look at the drawing of the similar Swan 36. Note the potential stress concentration at the end of the counter and the rudder post. The counter is also small and narrow.
The Southern Ocean is cooler than the late summer temperatures that would have been experienced at the start of the race. Lower temperatures would result in rigging contraction and even higher tensions. It is unlikely that Tapio had a chance to retention his rigging at sea. So much higher loads were placed on an old hull, not designed for them.

So my theory is that the increased tensions on the rigging due to all the above factors, and the age of the boat, led to a fatal crack in the hull, probably at or near the rudder post.

So that's my theory, and as Donald Trump would say, "only saying"....

Looking at that immense rebuild, was it completely DIY design or was a professional designer involved? What sort of oversight would there have been from the organisers?

 

[capnsensible]

I have been saying since the last McIntyre Circus, you cannot recreate a bygone 'golden age of sailing', that never existed, using old huls and modern sails and string.

Did they listen?

 

[Ravi]

I have been saying since the last McIntyre Circus, you cannot recreate a bygone 'golden age of sailing', that never existed, using old huls and modern sails and string.

 

[Ravi]

using old huls and modern sails and string.

A long meandering thread. Ignore if you are busy!

Yours is a valid point when talking about inexperienced amateurs trying to race tune their old boats on a shoestring budget.

But Tapio is an experienced, expert sailor with the resources to obtain the best engineering solutions , so it is a bit insulting to suggest that he had thrown his boat together.

You omit "using state of the art CAD design and computer modelling" for modifications. Many of the entrants - including Tapio - have had their rigs and spreaders redesigned with the help of specialists who use the latest modelling technology.

Add in the fact that Tapio had his mast shortened, which should reduce the forces on the rig and the source of failure is even more puzzling.

Add in the fact that the boat was travelling at low speed, (by modern racing standards), and that conditions were relatively benign for the Southern Oceans and it is more so.

Plus, the fact that Tapio had extra cockpit buoyancy tanks, in addition to the mandated forward sealed bulkhead, and the boat sank very rapidly - in an unexceptional seastate - is yet another baffling aspect.

Quite simply, the puzzle is that Tapio had one of the most thoughtfully set up GGR boats which was modified with technical and professional expertise and it was somehow lost.

There has been some interesting conjecture that the problem may have been the stress on the attachment points of the hydrovane to the beautiful but minimal S&S stern. This is a an interesting theory which would have been easily confirmed if Tapio had noticed something untoward with the windvane while the boat sadly went under. He did not, which could be explained by the fact that he had other priorities or the fact that the change in angle of a dislodged wind vane was impossible to notice on a sinking boat. Or maybe he saw nothing untoward because the windvane fittings were nothing to do with it and they were intact.

The mystery remains.

A major factor in the discussion us that Tapio said that he was awoken by a noise and he was unaware of any collision .. but that he heard a loud noise.

What is the difference between the two? The immediate thought is that a collision involves a change of acceleration and, probably, vibration from the impact.

If he was in a deep sleep in a boat in motion, it would be impossible to confirm or discount any impact, if there was one.

Could a glancing blow to the hull have resulted in significant damage without a change in momentum?
It puts me in mind of a book with a photo of a hole amidships which the author ? Moitessier? ?Chichester,? said was caused by being rammed by a large shark. Such a freak event, below the waterline, would be almost impossible to account for without salvaging the boat for a postmortem.

This incident will almost certainly remain a mystery forever, but let's give Tapio a bit of credit for having the best prepared boat in the fleet.

 

[Yara]

I was impressed by Tapio's rigging mods, and he was my favourite to win the race. The big question I have, is did he get an engineering assessment of the hull mods and the loads applied by the heavier rigging?

The wind vane attachment failure theory, IMHO, can be discounted by the fact that he had multiple bulkheads forward of the vane attachment points.

The other point to note is failure of wind vane components on other boats, most likely caused by "after-market" modifications.

WRT the validity of the GGR22, many of us sail in older boats, and can relate to a more simple way of sailing. After all, if you really want to use technology to get there faster, just turn on a motor.

 

[Birdseye]

We will never know what happened to Tapio's boat, but please indulge me while I explained my diagnosis.

Here are the background facts:
The boat was manufactured sometime in the late 1960s or early 1970s. It was designed by Sparkman and Stephens similar to the Swan 36. Note the counter stern.
Tapio's boat had heavily upgraded rigging, including a shortened mast and much heavier stays. It also had multiple headstays.
The boat sank rapidly after a bang, with no mention of collision shock.
View attachment 146538
Now for my theory.
One of the first engineering principles I learned as a teenager building model aeroplanes, was that reinforcing a structure can throw extra load onto other parts of the structure. It also taught me about stress concentrations.
Creating stronger rigging and a stronger mast allows for much greater tension forces in the rigging. These tension forces create a bending moment on the hull, with upward loads at the bow and stern. Now look at the drawing of the similar Swan 36. Note the potential stress concentration at the end of the counter and the rudder post. The counter is also small and narrow.
The Southern Ocean is cooler than the late summer temperatures that would have been experienced at the start of the race. Lower temperatures would result in rigging contraction and even higher tensions. It is unlikely that Tapio had a chance to retention his rigging at sea. So much higher loads were placed on an old hull, not designed for them.

So my theory is that the increased tensions on the rigging due to all the above factors, and the age of the boat, led to a fatal crack in the hull, probably at or near the rudder post.

So that's my theory, and as Donald Trump would say, "only saying"....

Thoughtful supposition - makes sense. But how about the more likely - its a 60 year "old banger" and simply past its sell be date? Everything on a boat ages over the years and all a refit can do is to tackle some of them.

 

[ridgy]

Aside from keels and rudders falling off I don't think I've ever heard (racing yachts aside) of a boat have a structural failure all by itself.
Has anyone got any examples of old cruising boats just splitting open and sinking?

 

[savageseadog]

Thoughtful supposition - makes sense. But how about the more likely - its a 60 year "old banger" and simply past its sell be date? Everything on a boat ages over the years and all a refit can do is to tackle some of them.

An already strong solid GRP boat was intensively rebuilt. Was it professionally overseen?
It does bring into question the rules of the race, the boats are supposed to be 60 years old, or the design is. With it being rebuilt to different standards, is it still a 60 year old boat?

 

[Sandy]

A long meandering thread. Ignore if you are busy!

Thank you for your detailed post. I don't recall saying Tapio had 'thrown his boat together'. While the skippers are attempting to do is to be admired, I wish I had the resources to do a single handed non-stop circumnavigation in a Boreal 47, I question the whole basis of the event.

My point is a more generic one. Given the number of competitors failing to complete the 2018 event I was left asking the question, "What is the GGR all about?", and still do today. Hence the comments about the 'McIntyre Circus', 'modern hulls and new sails and string'. I was thinking back to a post I made during or shortly after the 2018 event saying that the world had moved on from the 'non existing golden days of sail' in terms of technology. Meaning everything from clothing, nutrition to bits of string and sails, and the conclusion that it might lead to hulls being overstressed. Let's not even get into the advances in electronic navigation, and the speed and number of large ships plying their trade over the oceans.

Over the years we have seen a number of racing yachts that have been pushing the envelope, Pete Goss's Team Philips and Alex Thompson's Hugo Boss come to mind, as I sit here as a non racer I'm asking myself why proven hulls are having so many failures in the GGR. On reading the GGR 2022 page on Tapio I see that while the boat is almost as old as I am it has had a major refit and am questioning what changed in the structure of the vessel.

Looking at the number of entrants 32 or is that 16 depending what page you look at as of 24/11/2022 only nine are listed as 'entrants' and I assume still competing. I am happy to be corrected on the figures as the GGR 2022 Website is a dogs dinner and trying to get any meaningful information from leads the casual observer, me, on a wild goose chase. It really is not difficult to have a page stating who is sailing and the position of each competitor, the Vendee Globe can do that why not GGR?

My background is Safety Engineering and view the world through that lense. I would love to see what sort of testing went into each component, sub-system, system and overall boat before the competitor set out on a challenging event.

 

[dunedin]

An already strong solid GRP boat was intensively rebuilt. Was it professionally overseen?
It does bring into question the rules of the race, the boats are supposed to be 60 years old, or the design is. With it being rebuilt to different standards, is it still a 60 year old boat?

Bear in mind the rules have no logical basis - as almost all of the original GGR boats (bilge keelers, trimarans et al) would not qualify.
Rule 1 (and Rule 2 to infinity) is everything is at the personal whim of the race organiser

 

[capnsensible]

The website shows you how to download the app. Simples. Updated every 4 hours.

Live Tracker

So easy even engineers can do it.

 

[capnsensible]

Bear in mind the rules have no logical basis - as almost all of the original GGR boats (bilge keelers, trimarans et al) would not qualify.
Rule 1 (and Rule 2 to infinity) is everything is at the personal whim of the race organiser

And agreed by the entrants. Don't like it? Don't do the race.

 

[Sandy]

The website shows you how to download the app. Simples. Updated every 4 hours.

Live Tracker

So easy even engineers can do it.

Thanks @capnsensible good to see somebody knows their way about. It would be so easy to present the data on a page, we might even call it a dashboard

 

[jlavery]

Thanks @capnsensible good to see somebody knows their way about. It would be so easy to present the data on a page, we might even call it a dashboard

I have the app and use it daily.

The website is still a dog's dinner. The social feeds on the "day by day" are repeated, jumbled, random (seemingly) and almost indecipherable.

The app is the standard YellowBrick app, and is well proven.

(I write mobile apps for a living, and have worked on numerous website developments).

 

[Birdseye]

Meaning everything from clothing, nutrition to bits of string and sails, and the conclusion that it might lead to hulls being overstressed. Let's not even get into the advances in electronic navigation, and the speed and number of large ships plying their trade over the oceans.

I see that while the boat is almost as old as I am it has had a major refit and am questioning what changed in the structure of the vessel.

Would you consider re-rigging an old wooden pilot boat with modern stainless wire and bottle screws etc. Maybe you would but IMO you would be asking for trouble doing that on a basic structure that had already see 60 years of use. This could well be the same thing - a grp hull that wouldnt have been built to modern high strength standards now subject to high rigging loads and whats more being pushed in a race. And as for testing the basic structure there is not much more available than the surveyors experience and NDT tools like moisture meters.

Like you I dont know what has happened and I might well be miles off the mark but if modern high tec hulls can be overstressed whilst racing how much more likely a 60 year old hull. There is such a thing as fatigue.