Getting into sailing, good comp crew courses in the uk?

[steveeasy]

DAY SKIPPER
This is a practical course for sailors with significant previous sailing experience (a minimum of five days sailing and living on board, 100 miles logged and four hours night sailing is required) and a comprehensive understanding of the theory behind the practice.

Thats an extract from a RYA sailing school. Not to sure its understood who the course caters for. quite an error in my view.

Steveeasy

 

[newtothis]

I sympathize, but the point is that a person doing YM needs to have others on board to act as crew so that crew management skills can be learnt. So you will almost inevitably have a crew at various levels of skill and experience.

The only way you'll get the kind of experience you're looking for is own-boat tuition, which is offered by many sailing schools, but your boat has to be equipped to a minimum standard, and of course, be large enough to accommodate the tutor - I think the RYA put a limit of 30' as a minimum size, but I'm not sure about that.

Also possible to hire a boat and instructor through a school. My other half and I did it twice, crewing for each other's Day Skippers, on the basis that it would be best to learn how to sail two handed as that was what we planned to do. I went on and did YM training with a bigger crew (which confirmed my bias towards sailing two handed).

 

[capnsensible]

https://www.rya.org.uk/training/courses/day-skipper-practical-sailing-course-dss

 

[ylop]

Wot he said. You will learn far more about sailing (as opposed to handling a yacht) on a dinghy course than on a comp crew course.
I'm an RYA Cruising Instructor and own a boat but persuaded Mrs Q to take a dinghy course with the local club before embarking on the Yachtmaster scheme. If falling into cold UK water doesn't appeal then a holiday in Greece or the like is an option.

Whilst I agree that dinghy sailing is a good way to learn how the wind and sails work I’m not entirely convinced an RYA 1+2 course is the best way to do that (things have changed since I did my RYA dinghy training over 30 years ago) but:

- you can “pass” the course without actually understanding how sails (or anything else) work just learning fixed routines. I think that means instructors tend to teach it as a set of drills. Some of those drills don’t scale well to big boats.
- you will learn stuff you will never use: capsize drill, centreboard, perhaps launch/recovery, even hanking sails on is not a regular yacht experience.
- you probably won’t cover some things which comp crew do need like slipping lines, tying up with springs, anchoring, topping lift, clipping on, using winches.

I’m not saying to avoid dinghies but I sometimes see people giving the above advice like it’s a replacement for Comp Crew; and I think some of Comp Crew would be frustrating if you already knew the basic sailing stuff. I’d actually suggest it might be better to do them on the opposite order - Comp Crew then get some time on dinghies to really understand the wind before going DS. (And if you really want to understand wind - go windsurf).

Am considering booing my day skipper practical on west Coast. Really don’t want to end up on a small boat with a real mixed crowd all doing different stuff. Skipper needs to be on the ball.

Steveeasy

I may be confusing you with someone else - but I thought you were already up here sailing around. What are you hoping to learn on the DS practical? In my opinion it’s not so much a sailing course as a managing a crew of mixed abilities course.

 

[steveeasy]

Whilst I agree that dinghy sailing is a good way to learn how the wind and sails work I’m not entirely convinced an RYA 1+2 course is the best way to do that (things have changed since I did my RYA dinghy training over 30 years ago) but:

- you can “pass” the course without actually understanding how sails (or anything else) work just learning fixed routines. I think that means instructors tend to teach it as a set of drills. Some of those drills don’t scale well to big boats.
- you will learn stuff you will never use: capsize drill, centreboard, perhaps launch/recovery, even hanking sails on is not a regular yacht experience.
- you probably won’t cover some things which comp crew do need like slipping lines, tying up with springs, anchoring, topping lift, clipping on, using winches.

I’m not saying to avoid dinghies but I sometimes see people giving the above advice like it’s a replacement for Comp Crew; and I think some of Comp Crew would be frustrating if you already knew the basic sailing stuff. I’d actually suggest it might be better to do them on the opposite order - Comp Crew then get some time on dinghies to really understand the wind before going DS. (And if you really want to understand wind - go windsurf).


I may be confusing you with someone else - but I thought you were already up here sailing around. What are you hoping to learn on the DS practical? In my opinion it’s not so much a sailing course as a managing a crew of mixed abilities course.

Yes im up there sailing about. Thought id quite like to do the Day skipper qualification as another string to my fragile bow. Whilst im not hoping to learn too much im sure Id benifit from the course and initially thought it would be great fun. Having given the matter some thought not sure now!!! im not daft enough to end up on a small boat with not one or two but potentially 5 people all capable or causing me significant irritation. It must be utter hell for the skipper.
Steveeasy

 

[laika]

Wot he said. You will learn far more about sailing (as opposed to handling a yacht) on a dinghy course than on a comp crew course.

Someone needs to mention that Britain’s most famous living sailor hails from Derbyshire. And going back to the OP’s point about it being so far from the sea that location hardly matters…it’s the best part of a day to get to the Hamble schools. I leave it to others to calculate travel time to Scotland, Hull, Liverpool etc but the realities of trying to travel after work, accommodation when arriving super late on a Friday night / Saturday morning and being alert for the course might end up being an inferior option to just biting the bullet and doing Mon -Fri with a leisurely journey on Sunday and a weekend to recover.

I know we’ve done this countless times before but…Whether the OP will benefit from time in dinghies rather than that same time on yachts depends what they want to do. You don’t tell someone on a camper van forum they need to start in karts.

 

[Ahoyhoy]

Hi folks,
Thanks a lot , really helpful discussion and the listing of locations helped me narrow it down far better than Google did .
Late in the season, so looks like I had limited options, but that helped with the decision making to be honest . Hoping to get booked on tomorrow for a late September course .

Re. Dinghys, agree with the logic that they’ll make for a better/quicker learning curve for wind/sailing intelligence etc and plan to do it (on carsington as someone mentioned! ) once I know I actually fair ok on a yacht. My main objective is spending a good bit of time on a yacht and proving I can be a competent asset to a crew, in the hopes that that will get me easier access to other people’s yachts before I own one, so I’m comfortable doing cc and then dinghy’s later even if that is an arse about tit way of doing it .

 

[capnsensible]

It must be utter hell for the skipper.
Steveeasy

The students are the skippers.

The Instructor coaching every course has one of the world's best jobs. You can even get grumpies to learn stuff, meld as a team and, as I said, enjoy some great sailing.

 

[steveeasy]

The students are the skippers.

The Instructor coaching every course has one of the world's best jobs. You can even get grumpies to learn stuff, meld as a team and, as I said, enjoy some great sailing.

I do like your style and I am sure you are correct.

Steveeasy

 

[ylop]

Yes im up there sailing about. Thought id quite like to do the Day skipper qualification as another string to my fragile bow. Whilst im not hoping to learn too much im sure Id benifit from the course and initially thought it would be great fun. Having given the matter some thought not sure now!!! im not daft enough to end up on a small boat with not one or two but potentially 5 people all capable or causing me significant irritation. It must be utter hell for the skipper.
Steveeasy

Whilst it’s not explicitly in the syllabus, part of what you learn (through immersion) is how to cope with people not doing exactly what you asked / wanted / imagined. For what it’s worth I just spent the last weekend with two very good long term (non sailor) friends aboard and they probably tested my patience far more than anyone did on my day skipper course! Nothing to do with sailing ability. If you are used to sailing alone then it could be quite a culture shock as you now need to choreograph a bunch of people doing things that you are used to doing yourself.

 

[creeks]

I’m in Derbyshire/Peak District , so I guess any location is as bad as any other - everywhere will be a hard slog to get to so I’m open to all uk recommendations (unless I’m mistaken there!)

Ellen MacArthur was from Derbyshire and it didn't seem to hold her back!

 

[Skylark]

The majority of schools use freelance instructors. Students are always encouraged to give feedback at the end of the course and this seems to work fairly well as a process of Quality Assurance.

5 days afloat aboard a school boat can be a bit of a lottery. Potential for 5 strangers, potential for any weather. The instructor is there to play the cards he or she is dealt.

The mantra for students is “the more you put in, the more you’ll get out”

I was a north Wales recreational sailor for many years and after retirement from a “real” job I trained to become an instructor. After 5 years as a Cruising Instructor I’m now a YMI.

The Comp Crew course is great as it builds the solid foundation for anyone putting to sea in a small boat. The syllabus is laid down for all to read and shown in the YM Scheme Logbook (a good resource).

Personally, I would recommend The Solent as a very good training location. It is tidal, it has shallows and other dangers, it has a lot of traffic, a lot of buoyage and regulations from a major military port and a major commercial port. The travel by road from the north can be dire.

I love The Clyde and now keep my own boat there. The scenery is stunning and there are many places to go, potentially to hide from inclement weather. From a training perspective, there isn’t much tide and there’s little traffic (think ColRegs). The road journey from the Midlands is likely to be mostly free of congestion and very scenic.

North Wales is a compromise between the two (and is where I did my basic training). It is very tidal but there’s not a lot of traffic. Car journey is reasonable but avoid the A55 towards NW on a Friday evening and returning Sunday, it can be hell.

Best of luck to the OP. Keep an open mind and remember to pack a sense of humour.

 

[ylop]

The majority of schools use freelance instructors.

Interesting claim. My perception was that in terms of volume there were lots of very small schools - perhaps one or two person operations with a single boat. I can completely believe that bigger schools use freelancers, possibly skewing the numbers enough that the majority of instructors are freelance. It might seem pedantic but I think it’s important when weighing up different schools to know the options.

Students are always encouraged to give feedback at the end of the course and this seems to work fairly well as a process of Quality Assurance.

I’m sceptical about most “end of course” feedback forms across all training. How can the student who knew nothing really know what could have been better their only reference point is the course they just did. Negative feedback isn’t always acted on, because the organiser and/or instructor will have their own bias about why some students didn’t like it or cost or other factors.

5 days afloat aboard a school boat can be a bit of a lottery. Potential for 5 strangers, potential for any weather. The instructor is there to play the cards he or she is dealt.

Lotteries are always profitable for the organiser and occasionally very good for a small number of participants - was that really the analogy you wanted?

In terms of the weather - my DS was done with some conditions I’d never voluntarily go out in - but that was actually very useful as a confidence builder. The instructor did a great job of spinning the benefits of feeling a F7 and pouring rain to benefit all.

Personally, I would recommend The Solent as a very good training location. It is tidal, it has shallows and other dangers, it has a lot of traffic, a lot of buoyage and regulations from a major military port and a major commercial port. The travel by road from the north can be dire.

Those sound like factors probably more of interest to the DS than CC though? Having to deal with all that traffic is a useful skill to master if you are going to sail in traffic but you wouldn’t recommend someone from Harris learns to drive on the M25 if they never plan to leave Scotland and I wouldn’t suggest that someone who spent their time learning in congested London should pop up to Harris’s single track 60mph limits with out a moments thought either.

I love The Clyde and now keep my own boat there. The scenery is stunning and there are many places to go, potentially to hide from inclement weather. From a training perspective, there isn’t much tide and there’s little traffic (think ColRegs).

It’s not the solent for traffic but you’d be struggling to do a five day sailing course without encountering: cargo vessels, ferries, small power boats, other sailing boats, military vessels and kayaks - last weekend I think I say all of these every day!

There’s enough tide (especially at springs) for it to be part of the thought process without it being the dominant factor in every decision. If the aim after training is to sail in wales or the CIs, or even NW of Scot etc it might be better to do at least some of the training somewhere more tidal but if the plan is to sail the clyde (or med, Baltic, Caribbean) then the experience dealing with the flukey winds around the glens etc would be better! 5 days of CC in one are and 5 days DS in another may be the best learning. It would also let the OP see the range of sailing available, and with a good, knowledgeable local instructor is a bit like having a guide on board - with nuggets of information about things the pilot books don’t mention - like the showers in that marina are grotty or the owner of that pub doesn’t like yachties etc.

 

[capnsensible]

I do like your style and I am sure you are correct.

Steveeasy

I've had 23 years practice.....

 

[doug748]

Hi folks,
Thanks a lot , really helpful discussion and the listing of locations helped me narrow it down far better than Google did .
Late in the season, so looks like I had limited options, but that helped with the decision making to be honest . Hoping to get booked on tomorrow for a late September course .

Re. Dinghys, agree with the logic that they’ll make for a better/quicker learning curve for wind/sailing intelligence etc and plan to do it (on carsington as someone mentioned! ) once I know I actually fair ok on a yacht. My main objective is spending a good bit of time on a yacht and proving I can be a competent asset to a crew, in the hopes that that will get me easier access to other people’s yachts before I own one, so I’m comfortable doing cc and then dinghy’s later even if that is an arse about tit way of doing it .

I was going to suggest that you saved 500 quid by not doing the course and spent it on a Mirror or Topper which you could use every week at Carsington. You learn a lot and meet people. Plus you get your money back in the end, unlike the course.

However the course will be handy, you may loathe it or quickly get seasick but that is useful in itself. Nothing builds skills like time on the water with your own boat, plus perhaps a bit of racing.

.

 

[Skylark]

Interesting claim. My perception was that in terms of volume there were lots of very small schools - perhaps one or two person operations with a single boat. I can completely believe that bigger schools use freelancers, possibly skewing the numbers enough that the majority of instructors are freelance. It might seem pedantic but I think it’s important when weighing up different schools to know the options.

I’m sceptical about most “end of course” feedback forms across all training. How can the student who knew nothing really know what could have been better their only reference point is the course they just did. Negative feedback isn’t always acted on, because the organiser and/or instructor will have their own bias about why some students didn’t like it or cost or other factors.

Lotteries are always profitable for the organiser and occasionally very good for a small number of participants - was that really the analogy you wanted?

In terms of the weather - my DS was done with some conditions I’d never voluntarily go out in - but that was actually very useful as a confidence builder. The instructor did a great job of spinning the benefits of feeling a F7 and pouring rain to benefit all.

Those sound like factors probably more of interest to the DS than CC though? Having to deal with all that traffic is a useful skill to master if you are going to sail in traffic but you wouldn’t recommend someone from Harris learns to drive on the M25 if they never plan to leave Scotland and I wouldn’t suggest that someone who spent their time learning in congested London should pop up to Harris’s single track 60mph limits with out a moments thought either.

It’s not the solent for traffic but you’d be struggling to do a five day sailing course without encountering: cargo vessels, ferries, small power boats, other sailing boats, military vessels and kayaks - last weekend I think I say all of these every day!

There’s enough tide (especially at springs) for it to be part of the thought process without it being the dominant factor in every decision. If the aim after training is to sail in wales or the CIs, or even NW of Scot etc it might be better to do at least some of the training somewhere more tidal but if the plan is to sail the clyde (or med, Baltic, Caribbean) then the experience dealing with the flukey winds around the glens etc would be better! 5 days of CC in one are and 5 days DS in another may be the best learning. It would also let the OP see the range of sailing available, and with a good, knowledgeable local instructor is a bit like having a guide on board - with nuggets of information about things the pilot books don’t mention - like the showers in that marina are grotty or the owner of that pub doesn’t like yachties etc.

Thanks for the forensic dissemination of my post. You’ve brightened my day. Your points are as valid as (I hope) mine were. Plenty for the OP to consider. There’s no room for dogma at sea, all options are valid providing that they are safe.

 

[doris]

Hi folks

I’m Wanting to get into sailing, was looking at taking 5 days on a boat and then thought I may as well take the RYA competent crew course for a bit more structured learning and something to show for it at the end. My ultimate goal would be owning a small yacht (longer term) and would be great if I could pick up some work on boats as I’ve a bit of a career break coming up.

Sailboatproject.org offered a competent crew course over a long weekend, which would be ideal for me but unfortunately they seem to have stopped doing it. Does anyone know anyone that does similar ?
I would do Monday - Fri if there are some solid recommendations but I’m self employed so there’s an extra cost attached.

I also noted previous advice to get on a dinghy and learn water/wind from the ground up . Also going to be looking into that if I enjoy my time on the boat.

I’m in Derbyshire/Peak District , so I guess any location is as bad as any other - everywhere will be a hard slog to get to so I’m open to all uk recommendations (unless I’m mistaken there!)

You could always sign up to the likes of Crewseekers, chat to various skippers (being honest), thereby saving yourself the course fees but maybe getting a few duds. You will certainly find some very helpful owner/skippers to get you on your way. Then do your DS training, both classroom and practical, and you will be well set up for future boat ownership and pottering.

 

[Dellquay13]

I live in NE Derbyshire, but have kept my boat in Milford Haven for the last 20 years. I have always accepted that good cruising grounds are 5 hrs away, previously having had boats at Salcombe, Falmouth, West coast of Scotland and even N Brittany a couple times.
I have always stuck to the Celtic fringes, plus a motorboat in Greece for 10 years, so when I finally did my first RYA practical course last Feb (to charter in the Med) I jumped straight into YM coastal skipper at Chatham, as a completely different type of seaway. The course was all YM, no CC or DS and it wasn’t ideal, most of the time we were crewing waiting our turn at skipper, a mixed ability course would have been more intense for every level.
I can recommend the Sail North shore based theory course in Sheffield over the winter, once you have your CC practical.

 

[Airscrew]

+ 1 for choosing based on where you intend to sail in future.

If that is not (yet) known, then I would suggest the Solent.

I know there are other more beautiful and challenging spots, but there is a chance of slightly better weather, but most of all, people (from around the world that I have met) do say, if you can sail in the Solent, you can sail anywhere.

 

[[3889]]

Someone needs to mention that Britain’s most famous living sailor hails from Derbyshire. And going back to the OP’s point about it being so far from the sea that location hardly matters…it’s the best part of a day to get to the Hamble schools. I leave it to others to calculate travel time to Scotland, Hull, Liverpool etc but the realities of trying to travel after work, accommodation when arriving super late on a Friday night / Saturday morning and being alert for the course might end up being an inferior option to just biting the bullet and doing Mon -Fri with a leisurely journey on Sunday and a weekend to recover.

I know we’ve done this countless times before but…Whether the OP will benefit from time in dinghies rather than that same time on yachts depends what they want to do. You don’t tell someone on a camper van forum they need to start in karts.

Not sure what point your making here. Ellen MacArthur started sailing in dinghies. In fact, I don't know of any successful professional sailor who didn't, though I'm happy to be 'schooled' on that fact. Karting v camper vans doesn't seem a good analogy. Maybe cycling as a grounding in roadcraft works better?