Generator ground

[lustyd]

Just bought a generator (Honda EU22i) and need to ground it. The boat doesn't have an earth on the AC circuit and I'd rather not fit one so intending to use the grounding on the unit.

Has anyone made up a grounding cable? What kind of depth should I make it reach, should I weight it, should I add an Anode, should I add a metal bar to avoid too much exposed copper?

 

[rogerthebodger]

Don't get mislead by the term "Ground" what I refer to on a generator is a return wire that will allow a return current path that allow any leakage current to bypass the RCD protection device that Shold be in circuit.

A power supply device like a generator or inverter needs to be allow any leakage current to return to the supplying device (generator / inverter)

 

[lustyd]

It also has an earthing bolt to be used to connect to actual ground for safety

 

[rogerthebodger]

It also has an earthing bolt to be used to connect to actual ground for safety

Yes my honda had a "ground bolt (I never used it as it does not provide any protection) that is like an electrical device to "ground the case"

A generator and inverter is a supply device not a power consuming device which is a different type of device

A generator / inverter is the same as a power supply substation and should IMHO be connected in the same way which is different to a power consuming device as we normally have in our house/boat.

The connection to the ground is an alternate path for any current to return to the supply device (generator / inverter/ substation)

 

[lustyd]

What you're saying seems contrary to what the manufacturer says in the manual

 

[rogerthebodger]

What you're saying seems contrary to what the manufacturer says in the manual

Well as an Engineer both Mechanical and Electrical design I go bat to basic principles to decide what to do.

Most generators like my Honds and others only have a current overload device that do not protect the user from electrocution by any fault conditions where there is a fault condition in any appliance when a short from the mains supply to the case of the device you are using.

A RCD which my Handa does not have is the best safety device between the generator and the device you are powering. The RCD trips and stops the supply if there is any difference between the line and neutral wired.

This current difference must flow some ware due to the laws of current flow and this must flow back to the generator as the supply device and this current flow back to the neutral point of the generator via the yellow/green wire very called the earth or ground which is a misnomer as it is really a protection return wire.

Due to this misnomer as a all mains powered consumer devices have "earth " connection manufactures fit an "earth" point to generators and inverters that is of no use.

It's the connection of the neutral and protective conductor together at the generator that is important to allow any leakage current in the appliance down this protectible conductor (yellow/green) connect to the case of the appliance so if there is a short inside to appliance a difference current will flow back to the generator bypassing the RCD which will trip due to the difference current cutting off the mains power from the generator to the appliance making the appliance safe and the short will go away so any used will not get electrocuted

Thats how I wired my inbuilt mains generator and inverter with a RCD for each supply device generator, inverter and shore power switch selectable.

To me there is a lot of misunderstanding caused by confusing terminology with the use of ground and earth which in a boating environment is not true and practically in a GRP boat which is inherently safe due to in electrical insulation unlike my steel boat where the hull will conduct electricity to points, where I would stand and touch

 

[PaulRainbow]

You need to bond the neutral and Earth together and the Earth also needs to be connected to "Earth".

You can then plug the generator into your normal shore power inlet to take advantage of the RCD and MCBs.

You would normally make a connection from your shore power Earth circuit to the water and use that, ensuring that you fit a galvanic isolator. This can also be used if fitting an inverter.

If you want to make a "roving" Earth, a length of 2.5mm cable, connected to something conductive and suspended in the water to a depth that stops it coming out of the water if the boat roll should be OK. No need for it to be deep, as long as conductivity is maintained.

 

[PaulRainbow]

To me there is a lot of misunderstanding caused by confusing terminology with the use of ground and earth which in a boating environment is not true and practically in a GRP boat which is inherently safe due to in electrical insulation unlike my steel boat where the hull will conduct electricity to points, where I would stand and touch

This, as well as much of your claims about Earth connections are wrong and you should stop posting dangerous and misleading information.

Regs say that an Earth connection must be made, as do the manufacturers of most (all?) inverters and generators. Your opinions are irrelevant, as it's clear and well understood how these devices must be connected.

As for electrical insulation of a GRP boat, that's simply not true. If you're standing in a GRP boat and you touch a live wire, you get a shock. If the boat is running from an inverter you can still get a shock. Correct wiring prevents fatal electrocution.

 

[starfire]

You need to bond the neutral and Earth together and the Earth also needs to be connected to "Earth".

That bond is normally in place within the generator.

 

[rogerthebodger]

This, as well as much of your claims about Earth connections are wrong and you should stop posting dangerous and misleading information.

Regs say that an Earth connection must be made, as do the manufacturers of most (all?) inverters and generators. Your opinions are irrelevant, as it's clear and well understood how these devices must be connected.

As for electrical insulation of a GRP boat, that's simply not true. If you're standing in a GRP boat and you touch a live wire, you get a shock. If the boat is running from an inverter you can still get a shock. Correct wiring prevents fatal electrocution.

If you get off your high horse and understand what I said you will realize what I say is similar to what you said in your previous post.

The only extra you state is the connection to the water to make am earth connection. That is true for shore power when at the substation then is an ground spike as an alternate path for current flow back to the neutral earth connection on the boat.

With an inverter / generator the water outside the boat will not provide an alternate current path to the inverter / generator neutral connection.

Is a GRP an insulator if so, it acts like any double insulated power tool.

If as you say I touch a live wire on a GRP boat to get a shock, there must be a return path for the current to flow I have asked this before and you have not answered

Where is the return path for the current flow from the generator back to the generator neutral.

The knowledge gained in study of Electrical Engineering is much greater that an Electrical Technician.

 

[lustyd]

If you want to make a "roving" Earth, a length of 2.5mm cable, connected to something conductive and suspended in the water to a depth that stops it coming out of the water if the boat roll should be OK. No need for it to be deep, as long as conductivity is maintained.

Thanks Paul, makes sense. My thinking with depth was to ensure it was nowhere near the prop/shaft as it'll likely be off of the back of the boat and obviously vertical. My thinking with roving was it's for occasional use so rather than fit another box that I'd rather not make space for I could keep existing shore power connection as is without galvanic isolator even though it probably would be slightly better overall to fit and forget

 

[rogerthebodger]

You need to bond the neutral and Earth together and the Earth also needs to be connected to "Earth".

That bond is normally in place within the generator.

Again what is the function of the neutral and earth connection at the generator I agree.

What is the function of the earth connection to water in an isolated generator setup

None of my generators have a neutral earth connection from the manufacturer. I fit it myself

I currently have 4 generators 1 Honda, 1 Ryobi, 1 built by myself and one China brand

 

[lustyd]

May I suggest you create a separate thread if you'd like to discuss the pros and cons of an earth? My thread was to discuss creating an effective cable - I had already decided to connect to earth based on manufacturer recommendations

 

[rogerthebodger]

If Paul Rainbow is not prepared to answer any of my questions, I won't waste my time posting then.

I always do detailed research, but you get people who take a position and are not prepared to look an any alternative view.

Paul promotes himself as an expert in installation of electrical equipment.

I have no interest of providing any services to anyone I just research the subject and do the installation my way and only for me. I am NOT going to do anything that puts me of my family at any risk, so you do what you wish in the way you wish to do it, it's no skin off my nose.

 

[lustyd]

OK I'm now thinking a length of 6mm cable (just because I have a reel!) with an eye crimped on the end. I'll connect this with a stainless bolt to an old anode (because I have one spare) as a weight. I'll make sure the anode and eye are in direct contact and the anode should provide decent connectivity to water. 6mm stranded cable will provide a bit more strength for the dangling.

@PaulRainbow I'd never thought about it before until I started making the cable - when we say bond the N+E I assume both are electrically connected to bot pins? In my head I was just putting the two wires in the neutral hole but now thinking another short wire bridging them?

 

[PaulRainbow]

If Paul Rainbow is not prepared to answer any of my questions, I won't waste my time posting then.

I'm not interested in answering any of your question Roger, because you will go round and round in circle, like you do on every generator and inverter thread. I've answered the OP.

I always do detailed research, but you get people who take a position and are not prepared to look an any alternative view.

No need for an alternative view, there are standards throughout the World and manufacturers instructions with any decent equipment.

Paul promotes himself as an expert in installation of electrical equipment.

I'm not here to promote myself, i'm here to share what i know with others, same as most people here.

Despite your regular insinuations, i don't tout for work, i'm happy to offer free advice.

I have no interest of providing any services to anyone I just research the subject and do the installation my way and only for me. I am NOT going to do anything that puts me of my family at any risk, so you do what you wish in the way you wish to do it, it's no skin off my nose.

Sadly, your way is often not the correct way. No need to re-invent the wheel, round ones are proven to work well, there's no place for your odd shaped ones

 

[PaulRainbow]

OK I'm now thinking a length of 6mm cable (just because I have a reel!) with an eye crimped on the end. I'll connect this with a stainless bolt to an old anode (because I have one spare) as a weight. I'll make sure the anode and eye are in direct contact and the anode should provide decent connectivity to water. 6mm stranded cable will provide a bit more strength for the dangling.

Sounds fine, though i have to say i'd have fitted a GI. I think you will find the socket Earth pin is bonded to the case on the Honda generator, so if you did make a connection from the boats Earth circuit to the water (anode ?) that's all you'd need to do with regards to Earthing. Your choice of course.

@PaulRainbow I'd never thought about it before until I started making the cable - when we say bond the N+E I assume both are electrically connected to bot pins? In my head I was just putting the two wires in the neutral hole but now thinking another short wire bridging them?

A bridging wire is the answer. You can make a dedicated cable up that plugs into the generator, where the bonding is done in that plug, and a standard shore power cable plug on the other end. Just remember to mark it clearly.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I'm not interested in answering any of your question Roger, because you will go round and round in circle, like you do on every generator and inverter thread. I've answered the OP


Of course, you are not interested in answer my questions as it may confirm what you don't know.

End of discussion

 

[lustyd]

Sounds fine, though i have to say i'd have fitted a GI. I think you will find the socket Earth pin is bonded to the case on the Honda generator, so if you did make a connection from the boats Earth circuit to the water (anode ?) that's all you'd need to do with regards to Earthing. Your choice of course.

I know, I do realise it's the harder route. I'll probably change my mind before I use it and get it done properly

A bridging wire is the answer. You can make a dedicated cable up that plugs into the generator, where the bonding is done in that plug, and a standard shore power cable plug on the other end. Just remember to mark it clearly.

Awesome, thanks

 

[PaulRainbow]

I'm not interested in answering any of your question Roger, because you will go round and round in circle, like you do on every generator and inverter thread. I've answered the OP


Of course, you are not interested in answer my questions as it may confirm what you don't know.

End of discussion

I know how to follow standards, read and understand manufacturers fitting instructions and how to follow good practice, that all works for me.

What i don't need to know, is your incorrect and potentially dangerous Rogerthebodger re-inventions of how things should be done.